[{"data":1,"prerenderedAt":-1},["ShallowReactive",2],{"\u002Fpodcast\u002Fcto-special-40-marie-kilg-von-deutsche-welle":3},{"podcast":4,"pickOfTheDayCount":114,"speakerCount":115,"relatedPodcasts":116,"transcript":117},{"id":5,"published_on":6,"type":7,"number":8,"title":9,"slug":10,"description":11,"transcript":12,"audio_url":13,"apple_url":12,"google_url":12,"spotify_url":12,"youtube_url":12,"cover_image":14,"banner_image":26,"speakers":44,"members":74,"picks_of_the_day":109,"tags":110,"tagsPrepared":111,"speakersPrepared":112},"ecd47774-6909-471d-9522-98698e2139b8","2026-04-21T04:00:00.000Z","cto_special","#40","Marie Kilg von Deutsche Welle","cto-special-40-marie-kilg-von-deutsche-welle","\u003Cp data-start=\"115\" data-end=\"642\">Fabi und Garrelt sprechen mit Marie Kilg, freie Journalistin und Chief AI Officer bei der Deutschen Welle, über ihren ungewöhnlichen Karriereweg zwischen Journalismus und Technologie. Marie gibt Einblicke in ihre Arbeit als Host von „\u003Ca href=\"https:\u002F\u002Fwww.ardsounds.de\u002Fsendung\u002Fder-ki-podcast\u002Furn:ard:show:65505255c703e51e\u002F\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">Der KI-Podcast\u003C\u002Fa>“ der ARD und erklärt, wie sie schon früh ein starkes Interesse an Technik entwickelte – von HTML-Büchern als Jugendliche bis hin zu neuronalen Netzwerken während ihrer Zeit bei Amazon.\u003C\u002Fp>\n\u003Cp data-start=\"644\" data-end=\"1195\">Marie erzählt, wie sie als Quereinsteigerin ihre Leidenschaft für KI entdeckte und erste technische Projekte umsetzte, darunter ein feministischer Twitter-Bot und ein Chatbot, der ihren Lebenslauf erzählt. Ihre Erfahrungen bei Amazon, zunächst als Content Editor für Alexa, später als Senior Product Manager, prägten ihr technisches Verständnis erheblich.\u003C\u002Fp>\n\u003Cp data-start=\"1197\" data-end=\"1693\">Ein Schwerpunkt der Folge liegt auf Maries Experimenten mit KI-generierten Texten, insbesondere der \u003Ca href=\"https:\u002F\u002Ftaz.de\u002FAnic-T-Wae\u002F!a110123\u002F\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">automatisierten Kolumne\u003C\u002Fa> für die taz. Sie beschreibt, wie sie frühzeitig mit GPT-3 experimentierte, Texte für eine nichtmenschliche Kolumnistin generierte und dabei die \u003Ca href=\"https:\u002F\u002Ftaz.de\u002FKolumne-einer-kuenstlichen-Intelligenz\u002F!5898282\u002F\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">Herausforderungen\u003C\u002Fa> von Prompting, Kontextfenstern und der Textqualität meisterte. Dabei zeigt sie, wie Kreativität und technisches Know-how kombiniert werden können, um journalistische Inhalte auf innovative Weise zu produzieren und welche \u003Ca href=\"https:\u002F\u002Ftaz.de\u002FDas-Ende-einer-KI-Kolumne\u002F!6001264\u002F\">Learnings\u003C\u002Fa> daraus generiert wurden.\u003C\u002Fp>\n\u003Cp data-start=\"1695\" data-end=\"2111\">Marie gibt zudem Einblicke in ihre Arbeitsweise als Chief AI Officer: Sie versucht, stets auf dem neuesten Stand der KI-Entwicklung zu bleiben, testet neue Tools praktisch und analysiert, welche Technologien realistisch sind und welche eher Marketingzwecken dienen. Dabei hilft ihr die Erfahrung aus der Tech-Branche, um PR-Botschaften kritisch zu hinterfragen und die Realität hinter den Schlagzeilen einzuschätzen.\u003C\u002Fp>\n\u003Cp data-start=\"2113\" data-end=\"2675\">Abschließend diskutieren dir drei die Zukunft von KI, insbesondere in Text- und Knowledge-Work-Anwendungen, und stellen heraus, dass die größten Herausforderungen nicht nur technologisch, sondern auch organisatorisch und sicherheitsrelevant sind.\u003C\u002Fp>\n\u003Cp data-start=\"2113\" data-end=\"2675\">Hier findet ihr die Lese-Empfehlungen von Marie:\u003C\u002Fp>\n\u003Cul>\n\u003Cli data-start=\"2113\" data-end=\"2675\">Buch: \u003Ca href=\"https:\u002F\u002Fplurality.net\u002F\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">E. Glen Weyl, Audrey Tang and the Plurality Community: „Plurality. The Future of Collaborative Technology and Democracy“\u003C\u002Fa>\u003C\u002Fli>\n\u003Cli data-start=\"2113\" data-end=\"2675\">YouTube: \u003Ca href=\"https:\u002F\u002Fwww.youtube.com\u002Fc\u002FYannicKilcher\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">Yannic Kilcher\u003C\u002Fa> \u003C\u002Fli>\n\u003Cli data-start=\"2113\" data-end=\"2675\">Generell zum Folgen & Lesen: \u003Ca href=\"https:\u002F\u002Fjoanna-bryson.blogspot.com\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">Joanna Bryson\u003C\u002Fa>, \u003Ca href=\"https:\u002F\u002Fwww.normaltech.ai\u002F\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">Arvind Narayanan & Sayash Kapoor\u003C\u002Fa>, \u003Ca href=\"https:\u002F\u002Fkarpathy.github.io\u002F\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">Andrej Karpathy\u003C\u002Fa>\u003C\u002Fli>\n\u003C\u002Ful>",null,"https:\u002F\u002Fwww.buzzsprout.com\u002F176239\u002Fepisodes\u002F19046315-cto-special-40-marie-kilg-von-deutsche-welle.mp3",{"id":15,"title":16,"description":12,"tags":12,"location":12,"filename_disk":17,"filename_download":18,"metadata":19,"type":20,"filesize":21,"modified_by":12,"modified_on":22,"embed":12,"uploaded_by":23,"uploaded_on":24,"folder":12,"width":25,"height":25,"charset":12,"duration":12},"caa69f98-5ca9-4579-80ff-62f28be34755","Cto40 Marie Kilg","caa69f98-5ca9-4579-80ff-62f28be34755.png","cto40_Marie_Kilg.png",{},"image\u002Fpng","2396719","2026-04-13T08:40:41.175Z","11a655b6-bcfc-4c6c-a13c-68189e38edb9","2026-04-13T08:40:41.170Z",1500,{"id":27,"title":28,"description":12,"tags":12,"location":12,"filename_disk":29,"filename_download":30,"metadata":31,"type":20,"filesize":40,"modified_by":12,"modified_on":41,"embed":12,"uploaded_by":23,"uploaded_on":42,"folder":12,"width":43,"height":43,"charset":12,"duration":12},"04c14933-0d61-48a6-92cf-5d545cb2853d","Marie Kilg Cover","04c14933-0d61-48a6-92cf-5d545cb2853d.png","Marie Kilg Cover.png",{"ifd0":32,"exif":35},{"Make":33,"Model":34},"Canon","Canon EOS 5D Mark III",{"FNumber":36,"ExposureTime":37,"FocalLength":38,"ISOSpeedRatings":39},2,0.00125,85,100,"11455949","2026-04-13T07:58:45.394Z","2026-04-13T07:58:45.389Z",3840,[45],{"speaker":46},{"id":47,"slug":48,"academic_title":12,"occupation":49,"first_name":50,"last_name":51,"description":52,"event_image":53,"profile_image":64},"33ca758f-18b1-4036-9d5f-b6ac14f21d47","marie-kilg","Journalistin, Produktmanagerin und Medienberaterin","Marie","Kilg","\u003Cp dir=\"ltr\">Marie Kilg ist Journalistin, Produktmanagerin und Medienberaterin. Sie hat Bots für Medienunternehmen und Universitäten entwickelt, an der Erstellung der deutschen Persönlichkeit für Amazons Alexa mitgewirkt und die Turing Agency mitgegründet, eine „künstlerische Agentur für Mensch-Maschine-Unschärfen“, die KI-Diskussionen in der Gesellschaft fördert. Als Chief AI Officer baute Marie das zentrale KI-Team der Deutschen Welle auf und koordinierte die KI-Strategie.\u003C\u002Fp>\n\u003Cp dir=\"ltr\">Sie trainierte 2017 ihr erstes neuronales Netzwerk und brachte 2022 die erste nicht-menschlichen Zeitungskolumnist:in in eine Printzeitung. Ihre Freizeit verbringt sie mit Lesen, Livemusik und Kung Fu.\u003C\u002Fp>",{"id":54,"title":55,"description":12,"tags":12,"location":12,"filename_disk":56,"filename_download":57,"metadata":58,"type":59,"filesize":60,"modified_by":12,"modified_on":61,"embed":12,"uploaded_by":23,"uploaded_on":62,"folder":12,"width":25,"height":63,"charset":12,"duration":12},"a53d2e24-b5ec-4270-b236-f5195e1e3bc0","Media Innovation Camp Marie Kilg Gross  Credit David Pierce Brill","a53d2e24-b5ec-4270-b236-f5195e1e3bc0.jpeg","Media Innovation Camp Marie Kilg-gross_ Credit David Pierce Brill.jpeg",{},"image\u002Fjpeg","382459","2026-04-13T08:00:04.262Z","2026-04-13T08:00:04.258Z",999,{"id":65,"title":66,"description":12,"tags":12,"location":12,"filename_disk":67,"filename_download":68,"metadata":69,"type":20,"filesize":70,"modified_by":12,"modified_on":71,"embed":12,"uploaded_by":23,"uploaded_on":72,"folder":12,"width":73,"height":73,"charset":12,"duration":12},"0b39caf6-043a-482e-85cd-b6ee35c71b58","Marie Kild Profile","0b39caf6-043a-482e-85cd-b6ee35c71b58.png","Marie Kild Profile.png",{},"1686431","2026-04-13T08:01:06.137Z","2026-04-13T08:01:06.128Z",1365,[75,93],{"member":76},{"id":77,"first_name":78,"last_name":79,"occupation":80,"description":81,"normal_image":82},"ff2b7fcd-803f-4bcb-88d4-4f36636c7d6a","Fabi","Fink","\u002F\u002F Podcast-Host","\u003Cp>Es ist eher dem Zufall zuzuschreiben, dass Fabi zum Full Stack Developer wurde. Mit Anfängen als Product Owner und Software-Architekt, hatte er zwischenzeitig seine Passion als Coding Wizard gefunden. Heute fungiert er als Product Manager bei Lotum.\u003Cbr>Als Frontsänger mehrerer Bandprojekte fehlt Fabi manchmal die große Bühne im Alltag. Das ist vor allem dann spürbar, wenn er im Podcast auch mal ungefragt seinen Expertisen-Senf dazugibt. Im Gegenzug ist er der Einzige in der Runde, der den Pick of the Day wirklich ernst nimmt.\u003C\u002Fp>",{"id":83,"title":84,"description":12,"tags":12,"location":12,"filename_disk":85,"filename_download":86,"metadata":87,"type":59,"filesize":88,"modified_by":12,"modified_on":89,"embed":12,"uploaded_by":90,"uploaded_on":91,"folder":12,"width":92,"height":92,"charset":12,"duration":12},"56cc12dd-4672-4db0-850f-7ad37b68ca86","Fabi CD","56cc12dd-4672-4db0-850f-7ad37b68ca86.jpg","Fabi_CD.jpg",{},"583732","2024-07-29T11:46:00.241Z","e97179d2-51b3-4deb-828f-9524091441f5","2024-07-29T11:46:00.135Z",1024,{"member":94},{"id":95,"first_name":96,"last_name":97,"occupation":98,"description":99,"normal_image":100},"af60e6ac-beb7-4eff-8fe8-bb017558368e","Garrelt","Mock","\u002F\u002F Software Developer \u002F\u002F Podcast-Host","\u003Cp>Garrelt bereichert das Podcast-Team mit seinem umfangreichen Wissen über eine Vielzahl von Tech-Themen. Seine Leidenschaft für Mobile Games hat er eindrucksvoll bewiesen, als er noch im Studium sein eigenes Spiel entwickelte.\u003Cbr>Wenn er nicht mit seiner kleinen Familie im selbst umgebauten Van die Welt erkundet, genießt er es, historische Burgen zu besichtigen. Garrelt findet den Ausgleich zwischen digitaler und analoger Welt spannend und integriert so viel wie möglich davon in seinen Alltag. Seine vielseitigen Interessen und seine Begeisterung für Technologie machen ihn zu einer wertvollen Ergänzung des Teams.\u003C\u002Fp>",{"id":101,"title":102,"description":12,"tags":12,"location":12,"filename_disk":103,"filename_download":104,"metadata":105,"type":59,"filesize":106,"modified_by":12,"modified_on":107,"embed":12,"uploaded_by":90,"uploaded_on":108,"folder":12,"width":92,"height":92,"charset":12,"duration":12},"a97e0bc1-29e6-46ce-ab1a-d85b738552f0","Garrelt CD","a97e0bc1-29e6-46ce-ab1a-d85b738552f0.jpg","Garrelt_CD.jpg",{},"672932","2024-07-29T14:31:27.028Z","2024-07-29T14:31:26.899Z",[],[],[],[113],{"first_name":50,"last_name":51,"profile_image":64,"slug":48,"description":52,"event_image":53,"academic_title":12},490,207,[],{"id":118,"service":119,"supported_features":120,"speakers":123,"raw_response":130},"9e5134d9-54b8-47ca-87df-004eb3fbae23","deepgram",[121,122],"timestamps","diarization",[124,126,128],{"identifier":125,"name":78},"0",{"identifier":127,"name":96},"1",{"identifier":129,"name":50},"2",{"metadata":131,"results":145},{"transaction_key":132,"request_id":133,"sha256":134,"created":135,"duration":136,"channels":137,"models":138,"model_info":140},"deprecated","019dab91-028a-7c92-80bc-a1dd88036cc4","53305712b017d0a7afd405d39dae5fa76a392331e71b9a77ad2cdf5cef4a230f","2026-04-20T15:45:08.311Z",5480.673,1,[139],"91f8eabe-2126-4ed4-9e56-d480032309b3",{"91f8eabe-2126-4ed4-9e56-d480032309b3":141},{"name":142,"version":143,"arch":144},"2-general-nova","2024-05-09.3071","nova-2",{"channels":146,"utterances":47447},[147],{"alternatives":148},[149],{"transcript":150,"confidence":151,"words":152,"paragraphs":45051},"Hallo und herzlich willkommen zu einem weiteren CTO Special der programmierbar. Mein Name ist Fabian Fink und mit mir im Studio ist der Liebe Garelt Mogg. Hi, Garelt. Wie ihr wisst, nutzen wir das CTO Special gerne, 'n bisschen versteckt einfach mit Leuten zu reden, mit denen wir uns sehr gerne mal darüber unterhalten wollen, weil sie so spannende Werdegänge haben, dass wir uns die nicht entgehen lassen wollen, auch wenn der Titel nicht offiziell CTO ist. So einen Fall haben wir heute wieder und es ist son bisschen, ich glaub bei mir, vielleicht beim Garald, wenn wir uns noch gar nicht vorher drüber unterhalten, kickt son bisschen das im Posthouse Syndrom, weil hier haben wir jemand, der das, was wir hier so seit ein paar Jahren stiefmütterlich behandelt machen, sehr professionell macht. Und zwar haben wir uns Marie Kilk eingeladen. Marie ist freie Journalistin, sie ist hauptsächlich Chief Air Officer bei der Deutschen Welle. Sie ist 1 von 3 Hosts des bekanntesten deutschen KI Podcast der ARD, der genannt wird der KI Podcast. Sie ist Initiatorin des Zeit Zeit Newsletters natürlich intelligent und war unter anderem aber auch Senior Product Manager bei Amazon für Alexa. Das heißt grade so, Gerald und ich, ja beide sehr, sehr interessiert an dem Thema KI, da haben wir heute jemand da, mit dem wir sehr, sehr gut darüber fachsimpeln können, sind sehr froh, dass sie heute hier ist. Hallo Marie, schön, dass Du da bist. Hi, ich freu mich auch. Ich freu mich immer über KI zu sprechen. Ja, wir wir uns auch, genau. Also das heißt son bisschen, was ihr erwarten könnt, die zweite Hälfte des CTO Specials wird son bisschen mehr sich dann KI drehen und vielleicht auch son bisschen vielleicht mal schauen, was dieses Jahr so, was wir 3 hier zusammen dafür vielleicht predigten und was Marie auch dazu sagt. Aber natürlich wollen wir uns erst mal darüber unterhalten, Marie, wie Du eigentlich da hingekommen bist, was Du jetzt ja gerade alles tust. So der KI Podcast, wie gesagt, ja sehr der eigentlich erfolgreichste deutsche KI Podcast und habe aber auch gerade gesagt, Du bist Chief Eye Officer bei der Deutschen Welle. Vielleicht hast Du erst mal den Leuten son bisschen Kontext gibst, weil ich mein, wir kommen aus der Tech Bubble. Ich glaub, Du, so, wenn ich den Werdegang mir angucke, auch was Du gerade alles parallel machst, ist es eher vielleicht bei Journalisten typisch oder so, Handdampf in allen Gassen zu sein. Bei uns ist es ja eher typisch so, ein Job sehr fokussiert. Erst mal, hab ich da grundsätzlich irgendwas vergessen in der und kannst Du uns erklären, was eigentlich genau die Deutsche Welle ist? Ich glaub, ist nicht jedem Begriff da draußen. Ja, nee, total gerne. Ich ob Du was vergessen hast, weiß ich nicht. Kaum wir da nicht. Genau, das ist schon son bisschen son son Thema bei mir, dass ich immer gerne viele verschiedene Sachen mache. Und so bin ich auch zu dem KI Thema gekommen, weil's so weil's so vielfältig ist. Und ich glaub auch, das ist auch 'n Journalistending. Also ich hab mich als Jugendlicher, als Teenie schon für Journalismus interessiert, weil ich einfach wusste, mich interessiert alles. Und ich dachte, Journalismus ist son Beruf, da darf man da darf man switchen die ganze Zeit, ne. Also da kann ich ja so, als ich als Journalistin gearbeitet habe hauptsächlich, wars auch dann wirklich so, hab ich dann in der einen Woche irgendwas recherchiert über keine Ahnung, warum Drohnen jetzt grade so plötzlich so trendy werden, also halt so kleine Videodrohnen. Und in der nächsten Woche durfte ich halt eine KI Expertin anrufen oder mit 'nem Mediziner über 'n Medizinthema sprechen. Also das ist schon son son Hanfdampf Ding, glaub ich. Genau, die Deutsche Welle, die ist in in Deutschland nicht so bekannt, sollte sie aber eigentlich sein, weil das ist 'n also 'n wichtiges Instrument auch der deutschen Politik. Das ist nämlich der Auslandsrundfunksender. Also die Deutsche Welle macht Journalismus für die ganze Welt auf 32 Sprachen, weil Deutschland eben sagt, wir es ist auch in unserem Interesse, dass andere Länder einerseits auch wissen, was Deutschland ist. Das ist auch, früher war das noch stärker der Fokus, auch tatsächlich einfach Marketing für Deutschland. Und heute immer mehr, leider halt aus geopolitischem Interesse, dass wir halt sagen, wenn die Pressefreiheit eingeschränkt ist in Ländern wie Russland und der Ukraine oder in den USA jetzt verstärkt, dann wollen wir, dass die Leute dort Informationen bekommen aus 'ner demokratischen Perspektive und einfach eine, ja, eine Möglichkeit haben, zu Pressefreiheit Zugang zu bekommen. Und das machen wir teilweise aus den Ländern raus und teilweise aber auch aus Deutschland heraus, je nachdem, wie schlimm die Situation im jeweiligen Land grade ist. Das heißt, wir arbeiten auch viel mit Zensurumgehung und so und sind aber eigentlich 'n ganz normales journalistisches Medienhaus, arbeiten auch journalistisch unabhängig. Also es ist nicht nicht so, dass irgendjemand in der Politik dann diktiert, was wir berichten. Wir berichten einfach nur das, was wir richtig finden, freiheitlich, demokratisch, aber wir bekommen das Geld vom Bundestag. Also wir sind quasi öffentlich rechtlich. Das ist die Deutsche Welle. Ja. Sehr interessant. Ja, vielen Dank. Ich glaub, das hat einigen, also vorher auch mir war's auf jeden Fall 'n Begriff, aber so ganz genau war's jetzt die Aufgabenstellung ist so sehr cool, dass Du's für uns noch mal 'n bisschen klargestellt hast. Du hast ja grad gemeint, dass Du als Journalistin ja auch immer zwischen verschiedenen Themen und irgendwie trotzdem das Gefühl, wenn ich mir auch grade die Folgen bei euch beim KI Podcast anschaue, dass Du 'n sehr technischen Blick auf die Dinge hast so und auf jeden Fall da eine technische Brille einnimmst. Und Du warst ja auch bei Amazon, worüber wir dann auch gleich noch mal 'n bisschen sprechen werden. Weil typischerweise ist es so beim CTO Special, fangen wir an zu fragen, was war denn dein erster Kontakt mit Technologie? Aber vielleicht bevor Du die Frage so beantwortest, würdest Du dich denn erst mal selbst so als als Techy bezeichnen und gerne in dem Zuge dann auch mal beantworten so, wie wie ist dein deine Beziehung, dein Erstkontakt zu Technologie gewesen? Und war dir klar, dass Du mal Journalistin für den Tech Bereich bist? Jein. Ich musste auch 'n bisschen schmunzeln, als Du son Poster Syndrom angesprochen hast im Intro, weil das ist also ist was, was ich total kenne. Ich glaub, ich hab das mittlerweile 'n bisschen abgelegt, aber ich hab mich ich hab mich ganz lange, glaub ich, nicht getraut, mich als Techy zu bezeichnen, ne. Weil ich war Journalistin und ich hab eine Journalismusausbildung gemacht und ich habe Amerikanistik und Kommunikation studiert. Also ich glaub, ich ich frag mich jetzt immer, warum ich nicht eigentlich schon Computer Science studiert hab, weil ich erinner mich schon, dass ich mit 11 oder 12 Mal 'n Buch in der Stadtbücherei ausgeliehen hab über Netzscape und das auch total cool fand dann, da irgendwie so HTML zu lernen. Und also ich hab mich immer für Technik interessiert. Aber ich bin eine Quereinsteigerin und ich würde mich auch immer noch nicht als Programmiererin oder so bezeichnen, weil mir da, glaub ich, die Grundlagen oder ja, weil ich son bisschen das Gefühl hab, das Grundlagenwissen, also das studierte, das fehlt mir, obwohl ich natürlich jetzt viele Projekte in dem Bereich gemacht hab. Ich bin zur Technologie gekommen, glaub ich, also auch auch beruflich. Also das ist ja mein großes Glück jetzt, dass jetzt KI mein Expertengebiet sozusagen ist, was total Konjunktur hat. Aber ich bin da, weil ich eigentlich totaler Sci Fi Nerd bin und war. Und ich, also ich werd das öfter gefragt, was so der Moment ist, wo ich dann angefangen hab, mich für KI zu interessieren. Und ich weiß 2 Momente noch. Das eine ist, dass ich Iron Man 1 gesehen hab, also den, ne, den Film über Tony Stark, der halt sonen coolen Personal AI Bot hat, Jarvis, der alles für ihn macht und einfach halt megahilfrei ist. Das fand ich cool. Das andere war 'n Reddit Post über eine Person, die gesagt hat, bei ihr in der Arbeit hat jemand aufgehört. Und die haben dann quasi geguckt, was hat die Person eigentlich den ganzen Tag gemacht? Und haben dann einfach lauter so Skripte gefunden und quasi festgestellt, der Mensch hat überhaupt nicht gearbeitet, sondern einfach alles automatisiert. Und es war halt also ne Jahre vor den aktuellen Kaffee. Das war dieses Kaffeemaschinen. Der ist mir auch noch in Erinnerung geblieben. Das war das Kaffeemaschinenbeispiel, ne, wo er dann per Skript dann gesagt hat, so jetzt Kaffeemaschine Stopp. Und sobald er da ist von der Zeit, er hat seinen Weg gemessen vom Arbeitsplatz hin zur Kaffeemaschine und Genau das. Kaffeetasse. Der Genau das. Ich glaub, es gab dann auch, Du konntest ja doch teilweise die Skripte dann runterladen und so was. Und es war auch, ja, keine Ahnung. Wenn er spät in der Arbeit war, dann wurde automatisch eine Mail an Chef geschickt mit 'ner Krankmeldung. Es war einfach alles automatisiert. Und das fand ich einfach so nice, den Gedanken, also auch auch ohne zu wissen, dass ich da mal beruflich hingehen würde, aber ich dachte, egal was ich mach, ich möchte diese Person sein, die dann einfach bei der Arbeit sitzt und Youtube Videos guckt und und nicht wirklich arbeitet. Und das ist nicht aufgegangen, weil ich jetzt, was auch 'n Glücksfall ist, aber weil ich jetzt extrem viel Arbeit hab und und auch immer immer wieder dann doch die Bereiche der Arbeit finde, die sich nicht so leicht automatisieren lassen. Aber da kommt, glaub ich, mein mein ursprüngliches Interesse her für Technologie. Ja, jetzt als als Coder trotzdem die Frage, wenn Du sagst, Du würdest dich noch nicht als Programmierin bezeichnen, heißt aber, dass Du schon auch viel Kontakt damit hast und das auch in deinen Projekten viel machst und auch viel gut liest und schreibst und dich damit beschäftigst? Unterschiedlich. Also ich hatte bei Amazon schon teilweise ziemlich technische Berufe. Und da würd ich sagen, da hab ich auch einfach wirklich viel über die Technologie gelernt. Ich hab mein Imposter Syndrom dann irgendwann abgelegt, nachdem der Chat GPT Hype so groß wurde und dann ich einfach gemerkt hab, jeder auf LinkedIn hat irgendwelche KI Takes und die sind alle falsch. Und ich hatte halt ich hatte halt mich Jahre davor, bevor es quasi auf die Art trendy wurde, mit KI beschäftigt. Ich hab auch schon meinen meine eigenen neuronalen Netzwerke trainiert und so, ne, also kleine Sachen gemacht. Bin jetzt nicht irgendwie eine versierte Machine Learning Engineer, aber ich hab schon auch mal Code geschrieben und auch mal programmierte Projekte gelauncht und eben bei Amazon viel als Produktmanagerin mit den Techies gemeinsam dran gearbeitet, wie wie technologische Produkte gut werden. Genau und das war, also ja, hätte früher halt mich nie getraut, mich als als Programmiererin zu bezeichnen, auch nicht als KI Expertin. Aber als dann irgendwie jeder Andreas von überall plötzlich auf LinkedIn einfach so dumme Takes gepostet hat, da hab ich gedacht, nee, Moment, auf LinkedIn einfach so dumme Takes gepostet hat, da hab ich gedacht, nee, Moment mal, ich versteh eigentlich schon wirklich viel mehr über auch die technologischen Grundlagen als diese Leute. Und das ist ja auch mit meiner Aufgabe als Journalistin, komplexe Sachen zu erklären. Und dann hab ich eben angefangen, auch, ne, auch selber mehr dazu zu publizieren, mehr Postings zu machen, die schon auch quasi die Technologie erklären. Genau. Und dann hab ich einfach irgendwann mich getraut, mich auch als KI Expertin zu bezeichnen, ja. Und dann hab ich einfach irgendwann mich getraut, mich auch als KI Expertin zu bezeichnen, ja. Cool. Ja, ich mein, wir werden auch gleich noch mal drauf, Du hast ja auch schon gemeint zu dem Zeitpunkt, als dann ChatGPT groß wurde, als auf einmal jeder zu dem Thema gesprochen hat. Und Du hast dich ja schon weiter vor damit beschäftigt, wann so da der erste professionelle Kontakt damit war. Da können wir ja gleich noch drauf kommen, wenn wir jetzt noch mal den Werdegang son bisschen chronologisch durchgehen. Du hast ja auch schon gemeint, Du warst bei Amazon, vielleicht kannst Du uns erzählen, Du kannst grad irgendwie, warst bei deinem Studium so. Wie war denn der, wenn wir jetzt mal sagen, also son bisschen aus unserer TechBrille ist ja so, Amazon war irgendwie der der der der typischere Techy Job, den wir alle so kennen. Es gibt einen aus meiner Sicht erst mal davor und danach. Kannst Du uns das davor mal erklären und sagen, wie Du biedern dieser, also in meinem Kopf ist das son Switch an so. Der Rest klingt irgendwie relativ stringenzos, alles so journalistischen Bereich. Und auf einmal wechselt's auf die Tech, auf den Tech Bereich. Also fangen wir ja mal an damit so, was zwischen Studium und Amazon so, was war da und wie kamst Du dann zu Amazon? Ist das, wie es von außen wirkt, wirklich so ein ein Switch gewesen? Ja. Ja, tatsächlich ist es total lustig eigentlich. Da haben mich auch viele Leute aus meinem Umfeld immer immer wieder drauf angesprochen, was das soll oder was das sollte. Ich wusste nicht, dass ich so sehr ins Technische gehen will. Wie gesagt, ich hab mich als Teenie für Journalismus interessiert und hab dann die Journalismusausbildung gemacht an der Journalistenschule in München. Und da war's dann schon 'n bisschen so, dass ich die Techi Projekte übernommen habe. Also wir hatten son Abschlussprojekt mit 'nem Magazin und das Magazin hatte auch eine Webseite. Und da war's für mich total klar, dass ich mich halt dann für den Onlineteil mehr interessiere als für den Printteil. Und wenn wir Datenjournalismuskurse hatten, alles, was halt so in diese technischere Richtung ging, das hab ich einfach gemerkt, das liegt mir total und das interessiert mich auch mehr als die anderen in der Klasse. Und dann ging's darum, dass ich einen Job suchen musste und mir überlegt hab, okay, jetzt werd ich quasi auf den Arbeitsmarkt geworfen, was mach ich? Was macht mir Spaß? Was kann ich? Und das war tatsächlich 1 1 meiner ersten Projekte, die ich selber gecoodet hab, dass ich mir 'n Chatbot gemacht hab damals in Facebook Messenger. Wobei ich glaub, dass der eigentlich auf auf mehreren Plattformen funktioniert hat. Aber es ging darum, der Plattform so der, aber es ging darum, der Chatbot sollte meinen Lebenslauf erzählen. Also ich wollte das dann halt Recruiter oder meine zukünftigen Chefinnen, dass die dann da fragen können, ah, wo hat Marie Kirk denn 'n Praktikum gemacht? Oder was kann die denn für für Tools? Wie gut ist sie denn in Microsoft Word oder so? Und da, das war 'n Projekt, das war halt so das, was, glaub ich, viele auch von euren Zuhörenden kennen, einfach son typisches Learning by doing Projekt. Hab halt Blogartikel gefunden und irgendwelche Repos, die Leute geteilt haben, wo sie ähnliche Projekte gemacht haben und dann hab ich das halt nachgebastelt. Genau, und dann bin ich zuerst ganz normal in diese typischen Journalismuspraktika gegangen, hab bei der Süddeutschen 'n Praktikum gemacht, das ich, glaub ich, auch durch diesen Chatbot unter anderem bekommen hab. Hab bei der taz 'n Praktikum gemacht und dann auch verlängert danach und noch Elternzeitvertretung und quasi son bisschen bisschen fixer bei der taz gearbeitet. Und in der Zeit hat aber mein damaliger Freund eine Ausschreibung online gefunden für Amazon, nämlich dass Alexa nach Deutschland kommt. Und die suchen jemand, der die deutsche Personality macht und die Witze schreibt und und auch Nachrichten schreibt für, also quasi Content macht für Alexa. Und da hab ich halt gemerkt, okay, das würde mich mega interessieren und das passt total zu dem, weil das halt quasi so das Nachrichten- und Journalismus- und Contentzeug verbindet, was ich gemacht habe, aber halt 'n geiler Chatbot ist. Und also das war damals für mich auch so total verbunden mit dieser Jarvis Vision. Ich glaub, der ursprüngliche Gedanke von von Alexa, von Jeff Bezos ist, glaub ich, Star Trek inspiriert. Er soll so der Star Trek Bordcomputer, aber ich war so, Natürlich will ich da mitarbeiten, wenn wir dann halt son Ding kriegen, was dann in der Wohnung ist. Und dann kann ich halt in den Raum reinkommen und sagen, Computer, mach mir Kaffee. Und da hab ich mich dann beworben und und schon eine Weile drüber nachgedacht, ob das quasi für meine Journalismuskarriere eher schlecht ist, ob ich danach noch mal die Chance hab, in den Journalismus zurückzukommen, wenn ich quasi auf die böse Seite gehe und Und also und auch damals hat man schon viel drüber gehört, was Amazon auch falsch macht. Also da ging's dann noch eher drum, das Sterben der Buchläden und so und ob die da fair agieren. Aber in den Bewerbungsgesprächen, also das Team, für das ich mich da beworben hab, der Chef, mit dem ich da gesprochen hab, das hat mich damals total überzeugt und ich hatte einfach Bock, da mitzuarbeiten und hab hab auch gedacht, das riskier ich jetzt auch, dass ich quasi von der eher linken taz in den Hyperkapitalismus mal wechsle und dann nicht weiß, ob ich da quasi in in diese Ecke des Journalismus noch mal noch mal zurückgelassen werde. Ja, aber also ja, vielleicht sprechen wir noch mehr über Amazon. Ich sag immer, alles, was man hört über das Unternehmen, ist wahr. Es war aber auch eine sehr gute Zeit für mich an an vielen Stellen. Und ich ich bereu's auf keinen Fall, alles, was ich da gemacht hab, was ich da gelernt hab. Ich war über 4 Jahre da und und zuletzt auch in Seattle am Hauptsitz quasi, war für meine Karriere auf jeden Fall super und und auch für mein technisches Verständnis von Dingen. Und vielleicht, bevor wir gleich noch mal auf Amazon zu sprechen kommen, weil definitiv können wir da gern noch mehr drüber reden, auch wieder in der Wechsel zu der eher product Rolle, wo Du ja vorher dann eher, wenn ich verstanden hab, eher inhaltlich unterwegs warst, ne eher am Texten warst. Du hast ja von der taz gesprochen. Du hast ja unter anderem auch die erste KI Kolumne für die taz kreiert. Und da hab ich mich nur gefragt, vielleicht kannst Du uns einerseits als taz noch mal kurz erzählen? Und war das dann die Zeit vor Amazon, wo Du das kreiert hast? Also war das dann sozusagen auch dein Erstkontakt so mit KI beruflich? Nee, also diese die taz Kolumne, das war tatsächlich kurz bevor Chat GPT gelauncht wurde, also das war dann viele Jahre später. Ich erinner mich aber grade dran, ich hab bei der auch schon technische Projekte gemacht. Also ich bin da nie ganz weggekommen von. Ich hab da auch, das war damals in feministischer Twitter Bot zum Weltfrauentag. Das war eigentlich mein erstes großes Programmierprojekt, wo es wirklich auch was ging und wo ich noch weiß, wie ich danach nachts saß und irgend einen Strichpunkt im Javascript nicht gefunden hab und einfach dachte so, fuck, das Ding soll morgen online gehen und ich ich weiß überhaupt nicht, was ich tue, hatt ich massiv im Poster Syndrom, weil ich mir halt irgendwie Javascript so zusammen hab und das also, ne, ich wie gesagt, ich glaub, so lernen viele. Aber damals gab's noch keine keine Chatbots, die ich einfach fragen konnte, sondern ich halt Ja, also haben viele gelernt, ob's heute noch viele so lernen, die fragen. Ja, ja, heute ist ganz anders. Nee, aber da hab ich halt, keine Ahnung, die Stack Overflow und was auch immer durchforstet, nach was zur Hölle ist der Fehler, ob irgendjemand das vielleicht zufällig schon mal gelöst hat. Und es ging darum, wir wollten Twitter nach frauenfeindlichen Tweets, Kommentaren durchsuchen und dann quasi, dass der Bot automatisch darauf antwortet. Also wenn dann irgendjemand Schlampe sagt, dass dann halt son Gift kommt, wie er eine Watschen kriegt oder so irgend. Also son ganz kleines Projekt. Ich hab's dann hingekriegt und hab irgendwie den Code zum Laufen gebracht tatsächlich in der in der letzten Nacht vorm Launch. Und dann ging der online 9 Uhr morgens am Weltfrauentag und 9 Uhr 30 war er gesperrt von Twitter. Aber das war die Judith Botlo, oder? Das ist Genau. Ja. Judith Botlo, das ist find ich son geiler Name, auf den ist 'n Kollege von mir gekommen. Ja. Die hat aber die hat am Ende auch Posts selber. Also der Bot hat selber auch Posts erstellt. Ja, genau. Das war dann unser Plan b, weil also das Antworten Ja. Quasi das Durchsuchen nach frauenfeindlichen Kommentaren, das das das wusste ich schon, dass es quasi eine Grauzone ist in den nach den Tour der Richtlinien. Also Du darfst eigentlich nicht ungefragt automatisiert Leute zuspammen. Eigentlich logisch. Okay. Und also wir haben den Bot ja nicht getagt, sondern wir haben ja nur eine Stichwortsuche gemacht. Mhm. Und nachdem er dann gesperrt wurde, haben wir dann halt überlegt, okay, wie können wir den wieder online nehmen? Was ist 'n Plan b, was der machen kann und das. Also es war dann, ja, also auch aus heutiger Sicht auch langweilig. Der hat halt dann irgendwelche feministischen Artikel oder Artikel zum Thema geteilt und ja, und halt nur Leuten geantwortet, die die den Bot getagged haben. Aber also es war für mich auf jeden Fall 'n cooles Projekt, wo ich halt auch gelernt hab und ja. Und halt auch mal einfach so diese Erfahrung gemacht hab, dass man in der Nacht Mate Tee trinkt und einfach denkt, das klappt nicht. Und dann kriegt man's aber hin und der Code funktioniert am Ende und man kann's online nehmen. Und alles, was danach schiefgegangen ist, war ja nicht mein Code, sondern das waren die Twitterrichtlinien. Und dann, das war eigentlich von der Story her auch gar nicht so schlecht, weil dann haben wir auch darüber berichtet und halt dann die Metastory erzählt, wie doof das eigentlich ist, was Twitter alles zulässt. Also dass Du halt einfach Leute frauenfeindlich beleidigen darfst den ganzen Tag und wirst nicht gesperrt. Aber wenn halt 'n 'n Bot das kritisiert, der wird dann gesperrt Und das kriegen sie dann plötzlich hin, dass sie das bemerkten. Und also ja, diese Diskussion zu führen, hat das total gereicht. Ich mein, ich weiß, was Du meinst, wenn Du sagst, aus heutiger Sicht klingt das langweilig, aber damals war, also find ich das schon spannend. Ich mein, mit den Möglichkeiten heute wirkt das irgendwie so einfach, son Bot zu erstellen, aber 2017 waren die Möglichkeiten ja noch ganz anders. Also ich find das schon 'n spannendes technisches Projekt. Ja. Und ich fand's total total cool, dass die taz das mitgemacht hat, weil die sind ja auch in Risiko eingegangen damit. Und das ist auch der Grund meiner Erfahrung damals, dass ich dann viele Jahre später gesagt hab, okay, wir wollen eine quasi nichtmenschliche Kolumnist*in in eine deutsche Printzeitung bringen, also auch 'n für damals total gewagtes Projekt, zu sagen, wir schreiben komplett automatisiert, wir trauen uns auch in diese Diskussionen rein. Also werden da Arbeitsplätze gefährdet? Wie wie riskant ist das, also dass das wirklich eine Maschine da schreibt und und nicht 'n Mensch diesen Kolumnen Platz kriegt. Und da wusste ich, also die taz wird sich das trauen oder hab ich hab ich gehofft. Und von von anderen deutschen Printzeitungen hab ich dann teilweise gar nicht gefragt, weil ich schon wusste, das ist denen denen zu riskant. Und die taz traut sich immer immer wieder in so, ja, in so die Mitte der Debatte irgendwie auch rein. Und die machen auch Sachen, wo dann die halbe Redaktion eben nicht dahintersteht und wo sie dann auch in Redaktionssitzungen sich total zerfetzen darüber. Aber darum geht's halt, die Vielfalt der der Meinungen so. Aber lasst doch gerne noch mal kurz dann da auf die Kolumne eingehen, wenn wir's dann dann noch mal ansprechen. Also wenn ich's noch mal in in Kontext setze, also wenn Du wenn wir über Judith Botler grade gesprochen haben, das war die taz Zeit vor Amazon. Die Kolumne war dann, geh ich mal davon aus, das ist ja vorhin schon gemeint, nach Amazon, also kurz bevor ChatGPT. Vielleicht kannst Du einfach noch mal kurz dazu erzählen, wie das funktioniert hat, weil das war ja damals jetzt nicht so, dass ihr die Open AI API einfach angegangen seid, wahrscheinlich gesagt habt, hier verfass mal 'n Text so. Wie hat denn wie wie hat das funktioniert, diese KI Kolumne und wie wie wie kamst Du drauf? Ich kam drauf, weil ich tatsächlich mit OpenAis, GPT 3, muss das gewesen sein, rumgespielt hab. 2021, glaub ich, oder 2020 hat das angefangen, 2020 2021. Ich weiß nicht, ob ihr das damals auch mitbekommen habt, aber halt in so bestimmten Kreisen wusste man halt, es gibt jetzt dann, ich hatte sogar mit GPT-zwei Punkt 5 oder so was angefangen. Ich bin mir nicht mehr ganz sicher, aber quasi so sehr primitive Versionen von Textvervollständigung. Und die hatten da damals schon eine API, glaub ich, oder zumindest hatten sie einen Playground, wo man kein Chat Interface hatte, aber wo man halt einfach Texte reinschreiben konnte, die wurden dann vervollständigt. Und die war natürlich total schlecht, aber dadurch eigentlich künstlerisch interessant. Und es war schon damals so, ich erinner mich, da war ich nämlich grade in Seattle, also muss es während der Pandemie auch gewesen sein, während meiner Amazon Zeit in Seattle, dass die da halt irgendwie eine neue Version dann rausgebracht haben, vielleicht da dann das Da Vinci Modell oder keine Ahnung, was genau es war. Und ich dann halt gemerkt hab so, oh krass, das ist so viel besser als alles, was ich halt damals mit meinen ersten neuronalen Netzwerken gemacht hab. Und der also der der bringt plötzlich ja komplette Sätze raus. Also es ist nicht Kauderwelsch, sondern das ist eine Maschine, die erstellt Text. Und die kann auch 300, 400 Zeichen Text erstellen, der vielleicht nicht komplett kohärent ist, aber der zumindest nicht voller Fehler ist. Und das war dann so die Zeit, da bin ich dann auf 'n paar Freunde von mir zugegangen, mit denen wir die gegründet haben damals, von denen ich einfach wusste, die interessieren sich auch so in diesem Bereich für einfach für so künstlerische Techprojekte. Und denen hab ich dann gesagt, hey, ich glaub, die Zeit ist reif. Ich glaub, wir müssen jetzt eigentlich mal gucken, kriegen wir das irgendwie in eine Zeitung? Und wir fanden den Gedanken halt total lustig, dass auch die erste nichtmenschliche Entität quasi eine einen Text veröffentlicht, bevor die Printzeitung gestorben ist. Also so auch auch so als Sci Fi Szenario. Mhm. Genau, und dann hab ich einfach da da quasi angefangen, Texte zu generieren. Das war alles Open in als a irgend, da gibt's son Freaky Projekt von Elon Musk und anderen Leuten. Ja. Und wir noch keine Ahnung hatten, dass die dann sich so drehen und nicht nicht wirklich sein wollen und nicht wirklich das Wohl der Menschheit sich so sehr interessieren. Aber die Texte waren dann total faszinierend, weil ich hab dann halt irgendwie versucht, so zu prompten, also quasi den Text anfangen immer zu schreiben, Du bist eine Kolumnistin in 1 Printzeitung. Du schreibst dadrüber, wie's halt ist, eine KI zu sein und zu schreiben. Und dann mussten wir auch immer noch den Text anfangen mit, ich glaub, der Prompt ging immer bis liebe Leserinnen und Leser, es damals die Art zu prompt war. Du hattest ja nicht dieses Post Training, dass Du so sehr auf auf trainierst, sondern Du musstest quasi einen Textanfang schreiben, der plausibel ist und die Maschine konnte die dann fortführen. Und danach hat die dann plötzlich so geile Sachen rausgehauen und teilweise halt komplett, weil's auch noch nicht so gefiltert war damals. Also da war noch viel mehr einfach halt auch so Internetraage drin. Und da hat die ja plötzlich Kolumnen rausgehauen, über wie scheiße der Herbst ist und einfach halt dann noch so Ausrufezeichen 1 1 1 und und die ganzen scheiß Menschen mit ihren blöden Fahrrädern und rutschen aufm feuchten Laub aus und was seid ihr eigentlich, was seid ihr eigentlich für biologische Opfer? Ich weiß jetzt nicht mehr, die genauen Zitate. Aber es waren megareninteressante Texte damals. Und das ist eigentlich dann was, was wir dann total schade fanden, weil wir die Entwicklung mitgemacht haben, als also kurz nachdem wir den ersten Text gelauncht haben, kam dann halt Chat GPT raus und dann ging sie in den nächsten Monaten sehr, sehr schnell, dass sie die Modelle auch verbessert haben und viel besser gefiltert haben und das alles kommerziell verträglicher gemacht haben. Und dann wurde es für uns über Zeit immer schwieriger, da interessante Texte rauszubringen, weil halt die KIs immer freundlicher und normaler und und langweiliger wurden, ja. Aber ganz am Anfang, da gab's noch einen Moment, auch son paar Wochen vorm Launch, eine, gibt's das in jedem Programmierprojekt, müsst ihr mir eigentlich sagen, dass man dann denkt so, fuck, was haben wir gemacht? Es ist wird alles scheitern. Wir haben irgendwann 'n paar Wochen vor Launch dann mal gefragt, Moment mal, wie lang soll diese Kolumne eigentlich werden? Und dann hat die taz gesagt, ja, auf der Seite ist Platz für 3000 Zeichen, also die müsst ihr schon voll machen. Und dann haben wir gemerkt so, oh, Kacke, die ganzen Demotexte, die wir generieren, die sind halt 300 Zeichen lang oder 400. Und danach bricht's halt total schnell zusammen. Und dann mussten wir schon in in dem Sinne 'n bisschen was drum rumbasteln. Wir wollten, dass kein Mensch den Text wirklich anfasst. Also wir haben schon gesagt, wir werden mehrere Texte generieren und den besten auswählen, aber wir wollten, dass es wirklich 'n echter KI Text ist, nicht diese wie diese ganzen, wir haben 'ner Maschine alle Harry Potter Bände zum Lesen gegeben und das generiert sie, die damals rumging, wo man dann einfach so krass gemerkt hat, da hat einfach 'n Mensch wirklich so jeden Satz kuratiert und die lustigsten Sachen ausgewählt und so. Und deswegen haben wir da quasi 'n Robert in unserem Team, der der das gut konnte, der hat da quasi sone kleine Reprompt Maschine gebaut. Also dass wir quasi dann immer das Ende von dem, was bisher generiert wurden, automatisch wieder oben reingeben und die Maschine so dazu bringen, halt immer wieder die nächsten 300 Zeichen Text zu zu generieren, obwohl halt das Kontextfenster noch total klein war. Ah ja. Und so hatten wir da quasi son System drum rum, die die Open AI API. Ja. Ja, cool. Ja, also für deine Frage mit kurz davor son Skala, kannst Du so beantworten. Ich glaub, der Unterschied bei uns ist, wir wissen, dass die erste Version Murks ist, aber wir haben ja auch Zeit, einfach durch Updates das Ganze zu verändern. Und die erste Version wird irgendwann keiner mehr sehen im Vergleich zu 'ner Kolumne, wo halt jeder Beitrag erst mal da ist für alle Ewigkeiten. Also der erste Wurf muss vielleicht besser sein. Ich glaub, deswegen haben wir dieses, wir wissen einfach, der erste Wurf ist nicht gut. Ja. Wir haben Zeit, das zu verbessern. Vielleicht ist das das, was halt an so Projekte von so quasi einfach Scharlatan wie uns auszeichnen, die wir halt dann nicht professionell coden, sondern halt nur für für Fun Projekte. Dass wir halt diese Erfahrung nicht haben und nicht wissen, ah okay, wir müssen echt 'n paar Wochen früher anfangen und uns Zeit nehmen für eine Version 0, die dann kacke sein darf. Sondern dass wir einfach son bisschen dachten, so ja, läuft und und dann 'n paar Wochen vorm vorm Launch merken, hoppla, jetzt wird die Zeit knapp. Oder wir sind 'n bisschen frecher, weil wir geben Version 0 ja auch Leuten in die Hand. Ist ja nicht so, dass wir das im Geheimen tun. Wir wir wir exerzieren am lebenden Objekt so. Aber wir können's halt einfach irgendwann wieder runter dem sagen, hier ist was Besseres, so vergiss, was Du vorher gesehen hast. Ja. Hab ich grad, das ist 'n sehr normaler Prozess in der Software. Und ich, also ihr habt ja dann am Ende scheinbar auch 'n gutes Ergebnis gehabt zum Launch, oder? Also warst Du dann zufrieden, als es losging? Ja, ja, doch, das hat dann schon geklappt. Es war, ja. Findet man die Kolumnen denn noch online? Weil ich glaube, Du hast nicht nur mir, sondern sehr vielen Leuten das gemacht, das mal zu lesen, was so damals da rauskam. Ja, man findet die alle online. Ich kann euch den Link schicken, könnt ihr den in den Shownotes verlinken. Genau und wir haben auch alles andere drumherum öffentlich gemacht. Also wir haben auch, ich glaub, unser Reaper müsste auch noch online sein, also unser ganzer Code. Wir haben teilweise, glaub ich, auch nicht alle, aber wir haben, glaub ich, auch offengelegt, wie viele Texte wir jeweils generiert haben für die jeweilige Ausgabe, aus wie vielen Texten wir den ausgewählt haben. Genau. Also wir wollten, das darum ging's auch bei dem Projekt. Wir wollten einfach eine Konversation darüber anstoßen. Und wir wollten das halt auch nont tech gies die Möglichkeit haben, dann zu verstehen, Moment mal, was passiert da? Und was heißt das, wenn eine KI in Anführungszeichen halt in der in der Zeitung schreibt? Und dass die eben, das wird ja zwar eine Persönlichkeit geben und es will eine Story darüber erzählen, wer diese Persona ist, Aber dass man halt auch versteht, dass das nicht wirklich was ist, was Gefühle hat und so, sondern dass es halt, was ist, woran Menschen arbeiten und Menschen dann diese diese Story darum stricken. Und deswegen haben wir ziemlich viel online gestellt dann auch in Hintergrundartikeln auf quasi verschiedenen Leveln, damit die die es halt wirklich zum ersten Mal sehen, weil sie eine Printzeitung in der Hand haben, damit die dann nicht abgeschreckt sind von zu viel technischem Jargon. Aber halt, dass die Leute, die sich technisch dann dafür interessieren, dass die dann auch möglichst möglichst tief ins Rabbit Hall reingehen können und sehen können, wie wir's gemacht haben. Ja, könnt ihr gerne verlinken. Cool. Vielleicht lass uns gerne jetzt noch mal auf die Zeit von Amthor zu gehen. Wir haben ja jetzt ja grade was davor und danach. Also 2017 waren wir noch an den Abenden, wo Du nach 'nem Semikolon gesucht hast, was in deinem JavaScript fehlt, hin zu 2021 kurz vor ChatGPT. Also Du meintest ja, ich hab dann auch schon mal neuronale Netzwerke trainiert gehabt in der Zeit. Das heißt, es gab ja eine Entwicklung von Semikolon hinzu, Du beschäftigst dich mit neuronalen Netzwerken Und das ist ja genau diese Zeit hin zu dann dieser Kolumne, wo eigentlich Amazon lag, also genau 2017 bei der taz, bist dann ein, mit 22 bei Amazon. Kannst Du uns noch mal 'n bisschen was zu der Story erzählen, wie Du dann von dem, Du gehst zu Amazon und bist dafür eingestiegen, Texte für Alexa, Content für Alexa zu generieren, hin zu, Du bist Productmanager und dann ja eher eine technische Rolle bei Amazon so. Also wie wie war diese Zeit da? Und wo kam dann auch dieser Punkt, dass Du dich mit neuronalen Netzwerken beschäftigt hast, was ja auch wenn ich's richtig verstehe, irgendwie in der Zeit passiert sein. Ja, ja, voll gerne. Das mit den neuronalen Netzwerken war tatsächlich noch vorher, glaub ich, das war in meinem Praktikum bei der Süddeutschen, da hatt ich einen Kollegen. Also der hat auch eine total große Rolle in in meinem Werdegang und in meinem Interesse für KI. Hallo Felix, falls Du das hörst. Weil mit dem hab ich dann da drüber gesprochen, was wir damals an Blogartikeln gesehen haben aus den USA, dass Leute eben neuronale Netzwerke auch mit Text trainieren. Ich erinner mich an einen Blogartikel von Andre Capati, 2016, 17 muss das gewesen sein. Der war ja später bei OpenAI und ist jetzt frei, glaub ich, aber halt eine totale Koryphäe mittlerweile und damals, keine Ahnung. Ja. Was halt einfach irgend einen André, der aber halt 'n sehr geilen Blogartikel gemacht hat, weil der halt für jemand wie mich zugänglich war und ich einfach so Schritt für Schritt nachvollziehen konnte, was genau hat er da trainiert. Und er hat halt Ich werd ja, glaub ich, ja noch eine Youtube Reihe draus gemacht, ne? Ja, genau. Also ich liebe immer noch alles, was der macht. Ja. Er ist total guter Erklärer auch. Und damals ging's aber dadrum, dass der halt irgendwie KI mit Text gemacht hat. Und das war für mich interessant als Journalistin, weil ich halt irgendwie dachte so, wir erinnern uns, ich wollte ja der Mensch sein, der eigentlich nicht arbeitet, sondern Youtube Videos bei der Arbeit guckt. Ja. Das heißt, es war für mich irgendwie so klar, ich muss Maschinen dazu bringen, dass schreiben können, weil schreiben ist ja das, wofür ich bezahlt werde. Und dann hat dieser Kollege Felix mir eben geholfen, da auf seinem alten MacBook das irgendwie aufzusetzen, dass wir halt son Torch RNA trainieren. Und ich hab die Gutenberg Bibel da reingefüttert, weil ich damals noch nicht wusste, dass man einfach scrapen darf und klauen darf und die Runden, die man schlagen muss und und damit wegkamen. Ich hab auch dann Leute bei der ob ich deren Texte haben darf und ob ich eine Maschine trainieren darf, um's so zu schreiben wie Du Star Reporter Seite 3. Die haben alle nein gesagt, die fanden das gar nicht cool. Oh. Genau, aber das waren so meine ersten Experimente. Also da hab ich dann mit der mit der Gutenberg Bibel trainiert quasi und und das ist das Mac, der das MacBook lief eine Nacht lang heiß und am nächsten Tag kam ich zurück und der konnte son bisschen Bibelverse ausspucken. Also das war das das war das Erste, wo ich quasi auch auch Jahre bevor dem bevor dem taz Projekt mit der Kolumne quasi wusste, okay, irgendwie bringt man Maschinen dahin, Texte zu schreiben. Meine Einschätzung damals wär trotzdem gewesen, nie und nimmer kommen wir an den Punkt, wo eine Maschine einen kohärenten Absatz schreibt. Also das war so wild, der hat dann irgendwelche, also er hat zwar gecheckt, dass 'n Bibelvers irgendwie mit 'ner Zahlenkombination beginnt und dass da ganz viele Stämme und Söhne drin vorkommen. Aber ansonsten war das kein gutes Deutsch und das waren waren keine kohärenten Sätze und und aber auch, was ich gesehen hab im Internet, was alle anderen machen, war halt einfach wildes Zeug, war irgendwie eine Form von von Textanalyse, die man da bekommen hat und sone quasi son ironisches Verzerrren von was einen Text ausmacht. Ich hab dann, glaub ich, auch irgendwie so, wenn Angela Merkel und Haftbefehl 'n Kind hätten, wie würde das sprechen? Und sone Art von sone Art von Projekte hab ich damals oder von, Projekt kann man's nicht nennen, von Experimenten hab ich damals gemacht. Aber da war ich, also ich hab dann auch überhaupt nicht gecheckt, warum die ganzen so Starjournalisten dann sagen, nee, mach das nicht und benutz nicht meine Texte. Aber ich war so, wovor hast Du Angst, als ob jemals? Du siehst ja Was jemals passiert? Du siehst ja, wie er die Bibel hier verunstaltet, als ob er jemals so schreiben kann, wie Du Das sieht jetzt so Das hättest Du mir was, zeitlich einordnen. Es war so 2 17, also 9 Jahre später und deine Kollegen hatten recht, dir keine Texte zu geben. Jo, absolut. Also ich hab echt, ja, hab hab mich da wirklich getäuscht. Genau. Das war die Zeit quasi. Opa, 9 Jahre ist ja auch einfach verdammt lang. Also Ja, aber andererseits wird das denn, ne? Ja. Aber andererseits, also genau, das war 2017 dann, dann wenn man überlegt, dass ich dann GPT-drei irgendwas angeguckt hab und gedacht hab, ah, Moment mal, das ist auch viel besser, als ich jemals gedacht hätte, dass es wird. Das war dann 3 Jahre später. Und noch mal 'n Jahr später kam Chat GPT raus. Mhm. Oder 2 Jahre, ein ein, 2 Jahre später kam Chat GPT raus. Und seitdem, also ne, wir haben ja auch, also klar, wir sehen, wie's immer besser wird, aber das mit den Texten, das das ging dann schon schnell. Also das war, ich hab mich, ist eine meiner vielen Fehlprognosen im Kaiserreich in den letzten Jahren. Dann spielt ja manchmal vielleicht auch noch 'n paar Prognosen. Mal gucken, ob die zutat Gerne, gerne, kann Jetzt ist egal, jetzt kann ich einfach raushauen. Ich hab hab schon sone schlechte Track Record. Ich kann die gar nicht kann die gar nicht ruinieren. Aber jetzt passiert ja auch so viel durch Zufall kann man auch irgendwie recht haben, ist auch ganz gut an Prognosen jetzt im Air ispace so. Das ist, viele wilde Themen kann man aufstellen. Die Wahrscheinlichkeit ist auch hoch, dass es vielleicht zutrifft. Genau, ist dann Marketingsache, ob man dann irgendwie schafft, dass die Leute dann an die sich erinnern, wo man recht hatte oder nicht. Genau. Ja, ja, und Du hast nur nach Amazon gefragt. Genau. Ich bin bei Amazon eingestiegen als Content Editor. Und das ist aber eine Sache, die ich bei Amazon ziemlich cool finde. Das ist eine Firma, die gibt Leuten, also zumindest in in meinem Bereich, sehr schnell viel Verantwortung. Und Du darfst dich für alles interessieren auch und Du darfst auch total quer durch das Unternehmen steigen, wenn Du wenn Du gute Arbeit machst und wenn Du quasi vermittelst, dass es dich interessiert und dass Du das kannst. Und ich hab natürlich auch bei Amazon dann immer geguckt, was ich automatisieren kann. Und das war 'n Umfeld, das das total ermutigt hat. Also ich hab dann auch halt einfach direkt geguckt, wir hatten irgendwelche nervigen Content Management Systeme, die halt hässliche Oberflächen hatten und einfach viel zu viele Klicks von uns Content Editors gefordert haben. Und die hab ich dann halt mit irgendwelchen Excel VBA Skripten halt automatisiert, dass ich dass ich einfach meinen Content in Excel schreiben konnte und dann mit einem Klick diesen Kram hochladen konnte und nicht mit diesem CMS dealen musste. Und da hatt ich halt total Spaß dran an solchen Projekten. Und das ist natürlich was, was Amazon supergerne gesehen hat, weil das ist halt, das die Firma funktioniert total in Optimierung und in Effizienz und in Zahlen. Und dieses Dings, dieses das kleine Skript, was ich da gebaut hab, haben die halt dann weltweit ausgerollt für alle Content Editors. Und dann konntest Du halt rechnen, wie viele Hunderte Stunden pro Tag das dann spart und dass wir halt, weil wir halt, keine Ahnung, 90 Prozent schneller sind, weil wir halt einfach uns 'n paar Klicks sparen. Aber es, überall sone große Firma skaliert das total. Und genau und solche Sachen sind das, die ich gemacht hab und deswegen wurd ich halt dann immer wieder befördert. Und dann genau, war ich nach 'ner Zeit, ist gar nicht, Programm Manager für Content und hab dann quasi nicht nicht mehr einfach selber geschrieben, sondern halt mit mit gemanagt, dass andere Leute schreiben oder dass wir Content kaufen und dass der Content, den den man in Alexa so haben will, dass der gut funktioniert und dass es 'n gutes Produkt ist. Und irgendwann hab ich mich halt dann nach Seattle beworben. Weil auch weil auch Amazon das ermutigt, dass man eigentlich nur 'n halbes Jahr, maximal ein Jahr in derselben Rolle ist. Ich glaub auch aus 'ner, also die zynische Sichtweise wär, wenn Du die Rolle zu lange machst, dann ist ja auch langweilig, strengst Du dich auch nicht mehr an, weil Du nicht mehr neu bist. Dann bist Du vielleicht zu gut da drin und dann rufst Du dich vielleicht aus und dann bringst Du vielleicht nur 80 oder 90 Prozent deiner Leistung und nicht 120 Prozent wie wenn Du neu bist in 'nem Job. Das heißt, ich glaub, das hat schon auch 'n bisschen System, dass man immer entweder kurz vor der Beförderung ist und zeigen muss, was man was man richtig kann, damit man die Beförderung kriegt oder halt neu in 'ner Rolle und sich beweist. Und dann dann ist man in der Rolle und versucht, das zu optimieren. Und wenn man's dann kann und alles optimiert hat, dann geht's weiter. Und das macht einerseits total Spaß, aber trennt natürlich auch Leute aus. Und das wirkt wie son Sprung von Senior Proger Manager zum Senior Product Manager. Das ist schon 'n ganz andere Aufgabenbereich dann gewesen für dich, oder? Und wie war, also wolltest Du diesen Sprung und wie war er dann für dich? Ja, ich wollte Product Manager werden, weil Product Manager mehr verdienen als Programm Manager, bei Amazon zumindest. Ja. Nicht, ob's überall so ist. Ich war, also ich war zuerst in 'nem Contentbereich und es war dann quasi Management und war cool. Und dann, was ich vor allem wollte, ist ins Ausland gehen. Weil ich mir dachte, wenn ich schon bei sonem internationalen Konzern arbeite und die helfen dir ja auch dann mit Relocation Packages und mit den Anwälten, die dein Visum organisieren und und all das, da hab ich gezielt geguckt, was gibt's denn für Jobs, die mich interessieren, die an anderen Standorten sind? Und ich bin nach Seattle gegangen als, ich glaub, Program Manager für Alexa Music. Also es war dann, hatte gar nichts mehr mit Content zu tun, sondern da ging's dann die alle Musikprodukte auf Alexa, also Spotify und Deezer und Apple Music und die sie alle heißen, alle Musikdienste, die Du verbinden kannst, Amazon Music natürlich. Und da ging's ja einfach darum, dass man dann ja, dass dass Salexial die Lieder spielt, die sie spielen soll. Was alle selber beurteilen können, ob wir das gut hinbekommen haben oder nicht. Vor allem in den ganzen verschiedenen Sprachen. Und das war eine eine globale Rolle dann. Also da hab ich dann auch mit irgendwie 14 Ländern zusammengearbeitet und war megaspannend für mich, weil ich halt ich konnte halt auch bei der Bewerbung sagen, ich ich hab halt diesen internationalen Blick. Ich ich arbeite auch im Contentbereich quasi mit den anderen Ländern zusammen und weiß, warum halt 'n Produkt für Japan anders aussehen muss als 'n Produkt für Brasilien. Und hatte halt ja son bisschen diese diese technischen Erfolge im im Rucksack. Also dass ich halt sagen könnte, guck mal, wie ich hier das den Contentbereich optimiert hab und ich ich kann halt einfach Prozesse und ich kann managen und und komplexe Abläufe vereinfachen, sodass die Leute damit gut arbeiten können. Genau und das war dann, da war ich immer noch Program Manager, glaub ich, und hab da ein Jahr in Seattle verbracht, was leider das Pandemiejahr war. Also ich war nicht so viel in diesen fancy Glas Spears, die es da gibt, sondern sondern in Seattle im Homeoffice hauptsächlich nach nach 3 Wochen, nachdem ich dahin gezogen bin. Und dann, als ich dann entschieden hab, ich geh jetzt dann zurück nach Deutschland und die Pandemie geht leider nicht so schnell vorbei, wie ich wie ich jeden Monat wieder gehofft hab, da war's halt dann einfach eine Product Manager Rolle, auf die ich mich beworben hab. Also auch tatsächlich in 'nem in 'nem Team, das ich gut kannte von damals, aber halt 'n Level drüber. Und da hab ich mich halt dann als als Launch Managerin für für Deutschland beworben und den Job gekriegt. Und genau, und kurz vorher in Seattle wurde ich halt noch befördert zu Senior und dann von Senior Programm Manager zu Senior Product Manager. Das war dann einfach einfach noch mal eine Bewerbung. Das war okay. Und war's dann so, wie Du eben meintest, dass Du so neuer Bereich, fühlst dich erst mal wieder so, als müsstest Du 120 Prozent geben, weil alles irgendwie noch unbekannt ist und Du musstest irgendwie viel lernen? Oder war's dann auch schon für dich, weil Du irgendwie die Prozesse so gut kann, desto einfacher da einzusteigen als Productmanager? Das war immer so wellenförmig. Also ich glaub, der Switch zu Productmanager, der ist mir nicht so schwergefallen, weil also das ist auch 'n bisschen hab ich das Gefühl, 'n bisschen einfach nur eine Wording Sache. Bei Amazon gibt's halt diese Levels und das das ist dann definiert, also dass ich quasi dann diesen Senior Titel haben durfte. Das musst ich schon krass zeigen auch für die Beförderung. Da musst Du lange Dokumente schreiben, die halt dann zeigen, warum Du quasi auf 'nem Metalevel strategisch arbeitest und ne, welche Erfolge Du geschafft hast, was die für einen Impact haben, die quasi dann Level 6 sind und nicht Level 5 oder wie auch immer. Und ich fand aber, auch als ich Programm Manager war, hab ich ja am Produkt gearbeitet. Also es ging ja trotzdem immer Launches. Es ging halt dann den Launch, dass die Spotify Software gut funktioniert in der neueren Version. Oder auch als ich Content gemacht hab, hab ich mitgeholfen, Alexa in neuen Ländern zu launchen. Da ging's halt darum, dass die in Brasilien gut funktioniert. Und da hab ich ja natürlich auf 'nem mehr Juniorlevel zugearbeitet, aber es ging ging ja trotzdem immer ums Produkt. Deswegen, als ich dann Launch Managerin für Deutschland war, war's nicht son son krasser Schritt für mich, weil also auch 'n Produktlaunch ist ja irgendwie 'n Programm, weil Du hast ja trotzdem, Du hast ja Hardware und Software und verschiedenste Features und die neuen Features, die funktionieren müssen und die alten Features, die auf die auf das neue Framework funktionieren müssen. Das heißt, ich glaub, für mich war das gar nicht son krasser Unterschied, ob ich mich Produktmanagerin nenne oder Programmmanagerin nenne. Ich wusste eigentlich nur, ich will heißen, weil das halt mehr Geld bedeutet. So, ja. Ich weiß nicht, was da eure Erfahrung ist oder ob das bei Amazon dann auch so anwendbar ist auf die anderen, was was man Produkt und was man Programm nennt. Ja, ich glaub dadurch, dass wir ja auch in 'ner Firma sind, sehr klein, wo's auch eher darum geht so, macht das, was für den Erfolg notwendig ist, ist bei uns das Titel und der Unterschied zwischen den Titeln macht bei uns nicht nicht so viel aus wegen. Ist bei uns auch immer 'n bisschen interessant, so wie diese Rollen dann ausgeübt werden bei Leuten, mit dem wir uns hier unterhalten. Ich fand aber 2 Sachen auch interessant, die Du über Amazon gesagt hast. Das eine war deine VBA Automatisierungsstory und das andere war dieses so, man bleibt 'n halbes Jahr bis 'nem Jahr in der Rolle. Weil ich eigentlich beide Dinge gesehen in 'ner anderen Industrie, aber hab 'n anderen Blick irgendwie darauf und hätte gedacht, bei Amazon läuft's anders. Also ich hab war lange vorher in der Finanzbranche unterwegs bei großen Banken, auch im Investmentbanking, eher auf der technischen Seite. Und was ich auch gemacht hab, ist, bestimmte Prozesse einfach mit VBA Skripten automatisiert und irgendwie gefühlt Leuten von ihrem Job dann auch beraubt, die vorher alles irgendwie händisch gemacht haben, wo ich irgendwie dachte, also die eine Sache war, krass, so was geht bestimmt auch einfach nur, wo ich damals so überdachte in großen Corporates, die irgendwie im Finanzbereich sind, die irgendwie träge sind und oder irgendwie im Mittelstand, die mit Technologie irgendwie gar nichts zu tun haben. Und find's ja interessant, dass Du diese selbe Story von Amazon, einem Unternehmen, wo ich sagen würde, die sind ja Tech first und da sind so viele Techies, dass es da dieses Potenzial gibt, ich kann Dinge mit VBA machen und global ausrollen, dacht ich immer, ist eher verstaubten Enterprises vorbehalten. Lustig. Also Du denkst, wir hätten dann bei Amazon gar kein hässliches CMS gehabt, dass man überhaupt, sondern die hätten das dann nicht Ja oder dass da überhaupt das Potenzial dafür da ist, dass jemand mit, ich dachte immer, so was wird von Grund auf irgendwie automatisiert und irgendwie in so fisticated Technologie geschrieben, als dass jemand, der eigentlich Ja. Am Content arbeitet, vielleicht ein bisschen Interesse für Tech hat, son VBA in dem's gern ausrollen kann. Die hat gedacht, dass wir dann direkt erkennen, ah ja, okay, hier ist Potenzial, wir bauen das perfekte Tool dafür und nicht, wir nehmen das VBA Tool und rollen das dann dann alle aus und nehmen Find fand ich irgendwie interessant. Ich hätte gedacht, das ist irgendwie von vom Grundsatz her direkt technologischer gedacht, weil so in den Enterprises, die ich da vorgesehen hab, so, na ja, es gibt ganz lange Prozesse, vorher wird irgendwie immer alles händisch gemacht und Technologie kam irgendwann eher so on top obendrauf. Und Amazon war für mich 1 der Unternehmen so, ja, der ist halt direkt mit Technologie gedacht. Deswegen finde ich interessant, dass da diese Potenziale auch dafür da sind. Und sehr cool, dass Du das dann auch gemacht hast und die Chance ergreifst, aber auch Amazon dann sagt, ja, dann lass das nutzen, cool. Ja, stimmt, das ist lustig. Aber wenn Du das, wenn Du da grade so drüber sprichst, dann fällt mir auf, das ist auch was, was man von außen nicht so sieht, aber Amazon ist schon auch son Chaoshaufen. Also es ist irgendwie beides. Es ist teilweise eine natürlich eine hochprofessionelle Firma und also das sieht man allein an dem Erfolg. Die können Prozesse und die können optimieren und die können datengetrieben arbeiten und einfach wirklich, wirklich gute Technologie machen, teilweise. Mhm. Und dann gibt's aber trotzdem die Stellen oder die Ecken wie in jedem Unternehmen, wo das auch 'n bisschen zerfällt. Und ich glaub auch ganz oft in meinem Job, also kommt immer drauf an, womit man's vergleicht, aber ganz oft hatt ich auch das Gefühl, es ist einfach eine komplette Shitshow. Und unser Job ist einfach halt nur diesen brennenden Müllhaufen zusammenzuhalten irgendwie. Und ne, und also ich ich sag jetzt vielleicht nichts über die konkreten Bereiche. Ich weiß nicht mehr, was genau in meinem NDA Stand damals. Aber ich glaub, es ist nicht zu viel gesagt, weil ich einfach sag, wie in jedem Unternehmen, da arbeiten halt Menschen und nicht immer alles läuft so effizient, auch wenn so die Grundeinstellung und die Grundhaltung ist, dass man schon weiß, wie 'n wie 'n optimaler Prozess zu laufen hat. Aber das ist also das, es sei, dass man sich gut finde andererseits. Amazon ist ja auch bekannt dafür, dass es einfach customer centric ist und es geht am Ende den Kunden und es geht am Ende ums Produkt. Und deswegen ist es dann in dem Moment nicht so dogmatisch. Also es das ist halt das, was was ich total schön auch fand und total befreiend, auch im Vergleich zu anderen Unternehmen, die ich kenne. Ist halt egal, wer dann was macht. Also es wirklich, es war wirklich, wirklich egal, dass ich halt eine Content Editor in München bin, sondern wenn das funktioniert, funktioniert's. Und dann haben alle meine Chefs mich auch immer unterstützt dabei, das halt dann auch nach oben zu spielen, das auszurollen. Da steht sich niemand selber im Weg mit, ah, eigentlich sollte das so sein und eigentlich wär der Prozess anders, sondern es geht ums Ergebnis. Und das ist das ist, glaub ich, wirklich was, wo sich viele andere Unternehmen, grade die großen bürokratischen, auch was von abschneiden können, halt einfach 'n Ziel vor Augen haben und dann machen und dann nicht zu viel fragen, oh, haben wir das immer so gemacht? Oder sollte nicht eigentlich jemand anderes da noch mal 'n Auge drauf haben so? Ich glaub, damit hast Du auch gefühlt schon die Antwort für meine zweiten Unterschied irgendwie zu, wie läuft das in sozusagen in der Finanzbranche? Weil der Apartment, das Du meintest so, man ist angehalten, alle halbe Jahr bis Jahr den Job irgendwie zu wechseln und dann ist man so die ganze Zeit auf einem son hohen produktiv Produktivitätsniveau, was vielleicht auch zu Burn out führt, aber so man holt das Maximale aus der menschlichen Ressource raus. Dieses man ist 'n halbes Jahr bis 'n Jahr im Job hab ich auch bei den Banken gesehen. Aber da hab ich eher das Gefühl, das war ein das war die Krankheit, dass sozusagen Leute das nutzen. Ich hoppe einfach ein jedes Jahr irgendwie aufn anderen Job. Das heißt, im ersten halben Jahr kann ich einfach nur große Thesen in den Raum stellen. Keiner erwartet was von mir. Mhm. Und kurz bevor es dann dahin kommt und sagt, jetzt krieg ich langsamer Lieferverantwortung, Mhm. Wechsel ich den Job. Und das ist eher das Tool, sozusagen Arbeit von einem wegzuhalten und sehr lange mit nur Worten durchzukommen. Deswegen sehr interessant, dass aber ist vielleicht auch der Unterschied, sodass man halt sagt, man hat 'n klares Ziel vor Augen, man muss hier liefern und dann kann man aus diesem aus diesem gleichen Tool mit häufigen Wechseln eher viel rausholen, als das vielleicht bei Banken der Fall war, dass man damit sehr viel weniger rausholt. Und die Grundgeschwindigkeit ist wahrscheinlich eine andere, ne. Also dadurch, dass alle bei Amazon sehr schnell denken und sehr schnell wechseln, brauchst Du halt auch nur 'n paar Wochen, dich einzuarbeiten. Und nach 'n paar Wochen wird schon dir halt schon gefordert, dass Du Ergebnisse lieferst. Und alle dich rum arbeiten dich auch schnell ein und dann, also das ist, glaub ich, vielleicht ist ein Jahr bei Amazon halt so viel wie in 'nem anderen Unternehmen 3, 4 Jahre im Sinne von wie lang man auch braucht, zu lernen. Und ich mein, das was auch was, was Amazon gut kann. Es ist halt dann sehr vieles auch einfach dokumentiert und die werfen ja halt am Ende die Dokumentation hin und dann, jetzt ist da musst Du nicht irgendwie monatelang Meetings machen, bis Du verstehst, wie der Laden läuft, sondern der Laden läuft und Du wirst dann da reingeworfen, ja. Cool. Vielleicht, weil wir 'n bisschen, wenn wir auf die Uhr blicken wollen, noch 'n bisschen was KI unterhalten wollen. Lass uns mal den Fast forward machen zu, wie kam's dann der Schritt wieder zurück von Amazon hin, wieder zum Journalismus. Und jetzt Podcast vom Host vom KI Podcast, Chief AI Officer, wie wie kam wie kam dieser Switch von Amazon dann da wieder raus und zurück in KI und Journalismus? Ja. Irgendwann hat's gereicht bei Amazon. Also ne, ich hab da so diese Burn out Sachen angesprochen. Ich Ich hab superviele Leute mich rum ausbrennen gesehen, natürlich dann auch noch mehr während der Pandemie. Ich weiß nicht, ich hab selber nie mir eine professionelle Diagnose geholt, aber glaub schon, dass ich auch mal 'n kleines Burn out zumindest hatte und mich dann davon wieder erholt hab und dann noch mal in in Deutschland noch mal diese Produktmanagerrolle hatte. Aber ich hab auch gemerkt dann, also da ging's halt dann Launches und da ging's da drum, das effizient zu machen. Aber ich hatte dann das Gefühl, ich hab da auch wieder son Plateau erreicht und die nächste Beförderung wär dann halt Director gewesen. Und da hab ich dann auch gemerkt, das reizt mich nicht und dafür hab ich aber auch die Energie nicht. Also es wär halt noch mal eine krasse Beförderung gewesen, die anzustreben. Ich hatte natürlich sagen können, ich bleib in dem Job, aber da hatt ich halt son bisschen das Gefühl, ich lern da jetzt nichts mehr Neues, sondern ich manage halt einfach meinen Alltag so weg und das ist manchmal cool und manchmal nervig. Aber es gibt halt nicht so den logischen nächsten Schritt. Und der logische nächste Schritt auf dann irgendwie Europalevel oder so was zu gehen, da wusst ich halt so, nee, das da müsst ich mich jetzt mega reinhängen und auch die Ellbogen ausfahren, weil das halt dann auch einen Level ist, auf auf dem halt es wenige Stellen gibt und sehr viele Leute miteinander konkurrieren. Und ich weiß gar nicht, ob ich das alles so mir gedacht hab damals oder ob einfach halt die Stelle bei die neue Stelle quasi in mein mein Leben kam und ich dann erst gecheckt hab, es reicht. Aber es hat irgendwie so ganz gut gepasst. Also die Deutsche Welle hat eine Stelle ausgeschrieben, da ging's Innovationsmanagement im Lab, also irgendwas mit coolen Innovationsprojekten, irgendwas mit Technologiemanagement und halt in dem Bereich, der mich ja immer interessiert hat, also Journalismus. Genau. Und als ich irgendwie diese Stelle gesehen hab, hab ich, ich glaub, ich hab eigentlich gedacht, ich bewerb mich mal aus Spaß, zu gucken, ob die Journalisten mich noch wollen so. Mhm. Aha. Und hab eigentlich, hab 'n bisschen mir auch gedacht, ja, das wird wahrscheinlich nichts, weil ich auch bei Amazon natürlich extrem gut verdient hab dann auf dem Niveau Und wusste, in im Medienbereich verdienst Du einfach nicht das. Und außerdem wusst ich ja nicht, ob ob das irgendwie für die überhaupt akzeptabel ist, dass ich jetzt jahrelang auf der dunklen Seite war. Mhm. Und am Ende haben die mir aber 'n Angebot gemacht. Und ich hab lange drüber nachgedacht, ob ich quasi auch von meinem Gehaltsniveau runterwill, aber fand dann den Laden so sympathisch, hatte einfach so Bock auf diese Jobbeschreibung. Und hab dann gesagt, okay, ja, ich hab jetzt 'n bisschen bisschen Geld verdient, die letzten Jahre auch meine Aktienpakete ja mitgenommen. Ich kann mir das vielleicht auch einfach gönnen, noch mal 'n schlechter bezahlten Job zu machen und dafür halt bei 'nem Unternehmen was Werte hat, an die ich glaube und Mhm. Was eine coole, wichtige Arbeit macht für die Demokratie und die Freiheit auf der Welt so. Genau. Und dann bin ich gewechselt, dann bin ich nach Berlin gezogen und und hab bei der Deutschen Welle angefangen. Was haben die denn gesagt zu deiner dunklen Seite? Oder hatten sie gar keinen Take dazu? Hat mich immer überrascht, aber auch auch aus anderen Bereichen im Journalismus. Das war nie 'n Thema, sondern es war eher so, dass es, glaub ich, total gut für meinen Lebenslauf war. Ich irgendwie beeindruckt Amazon als Name die Leute auch total. Das hat mich auch überrascht, wie krass das ist. Ich glaub, es gibt mir auf eine Art noch mal eine Credibility, die ich auch nicht erwartet hätte. Aber ich hör ich hör wenig so, oh, aber moralisch ganz schlimm, dass Du für die gearbeitet hast, sondern mehr so, ach cool, Du kannst bestimmt was, weil wir gucken da von außen drauf und es scheint zu funktionieren, was die machen. Also was auch immer Du da gelernt hast, bitte bring das zu uns. Also es war tatsächlich viel, viel offener, als ich dachte. Das ist aber generell interessant, finde ich, an dem Unternehmen Amazon, sodass wenn man halt so, glaube ich, auch aus der Techbranche draufblickt und irgendwie als Amazon als Unternehmen das Techunternehmen sieht, ist das so superbeeindruckend und irgendwie supercool, auch mit ABS, einfach was die da drum rum machen. Und andererseits ist das das Produkt Amazon, Amazon d e, der der E-Commerce-Store ist natürlich irgendwie hat eine ganz andere, darauf hat man eine ganz andere Sicht. Und irgendwie, wenn ich wirklich auf das Produkt schaue, denke ich anders darüber nach als auf das Unternehmen. Man arbeitet da und entwickelt Techprodukte so. Also ich hab da auch irgendwie son je nachdem, über welches Amazon ich rede, hab ich eine andere Meinung über dieses Unternehmen. Also es ist nicht es ist der Inhalt und und Umsetzung und Art Company sind schon 2 2 Paar Schuhe. Ich glaub auch auch grade bei der Company so, ob man im Tech Bereich ist oder ob man eher in den Warehouse von Amazon arbeitet. Ja, das ist auch interessant. Ja, das ist auch, glaub ich, was ganz anderes für wie sich's für die Mitarbeitenden anfühlt, ja. Also es gibt schon, es sind schon viele viele Firmen in 1 sozusagen und Alexa ist auch noch mal 'n eigener Kosmos. Vielleicht spielt das auch eine Rolle, dass ich nicht E-Commerce gemacht hab, sondern Alexa und dass dann die Leute da schon sehen, das hat irgendwie noch was mit Content zu tun gehabt oder weiß ich nicht. Da werd ich halt dann viel gefragt, ob wir alle abgehört werden Und kann aus meiner Sicht, aus dem, was ich gesehen hab, beruhigen, aber Das ist nicht so. Würdest Du denn sagen, dass sich dein journalistischer Blick oder geändert wahrscheinlich, aber auch verbessert hat dadurch, dass Du vielleicht so intern in diesen Dingen warst? Das ist eine sehr gute Frage. Ich glaub schon, dass es mir total was gebracht hat. Also ich glaub, es hat mir was gebracht, ausm Journalismus raus zu sein, egal wo. Weil der Journalismus ist ja auch eine Bubble und das sind dann auch bestimmte Blickwinkel einfach vorherrschend. Und ich glaub, das hilft mir, dass ich auch mal von außen einfach drauf geguckt hab. Und und nicht jetzt einfach für immer so in meinen da auch diesen nur quasi den journalistischen Idealismus hatte und und nur und nur wusste, wie Medien Leute untereinander reden. Und jetzt, wenn ich jetzt auf Amazon und die anderen Tech Krisen gucke, dann hab ich natürlich auch einfach einen 'n bestimmtes Gefühl und einen bestimmten Blickwinkel und eine bestimmte Meinung dazu, wie die agieren. Und klar, man sieht auch man sieht auch immer nur einen Teil von der Wahrheit, also auch auch von innen seh ich ja nicht alles, was das Unternehmen ausmacht. Aber ich glaub schon, dass es mir jetzt hilft, kritisch zu sein. In der KI Berichterstattung haben wir's ja grade total stark, dass viele leider einfach halt nur wiedergeben, was die was die Techies sagen. Also dass dass man da auch, glaub ich, 'n bisschen ehrfürchtig ist. Und ich glaub halt auch viele Menschen, die im Journalismus arbeiten, die halt sich nicht als Techies begreifen, dass die auch so sone mentale Schranke haben und dann denken so, ah, aber ich habe eben nicht Computer Science in Stanford studiert. Und deswegen muss ich das ja eigentlich glauben. Und wenn die mir dann sagen, das, was die bauen, ist total krass, dann kann ich das ja nicht hinterfragen, aber ich hab ja keine Ahnung, das ist ja irgendwas mit Zahlen. Ich mach ja Buchstaben aus 'nem Grund, weil ich Martin noch nie mochte. Und das ist son sone eine Haltung oder 'n Bauchgefühl, was ich total viel sehe. Und was dann, glaub ich, dazu führt, dass man teilweise halt einfach unkritisch auch die Storys übernimmt und nicht so sehr durchblickt, dass es halt einfach auch 'n krasses Marketing ist und dass die auch bewusst sich als Nerds inszenieren und bewusst ihre Technologie als was inszenieren, was man nicht verstehen kann. Mhm. Und es ist, find ich, nicht die Rolle des Journalismus, sondern die Rolle des Journalismus ist eigentlich, sich in komplexe Sachen einzuarbeiten, Dinge zu verstehen, auch wenn sie schwierig zu verstehen sind. Das machen wir auch in der Politik, das machen wir auch in der Wirtschaft, das machen wir in in allen Bereichen. Und ich glaub, dass, auf eine Art hilft es mir, dass ich das Unternehmen von innen gesehen hab, weil ich halt auch weiß, wie die über PR nachdenken, was dann wirklich da intern funktioniert und was halt 'n brennendes Damster Feier ist so. Und ich glaub, das ja, hatten wir ganz gut getan, beide beide Bereiche mal zu sehen. Ich find auch, wenn man grade den KI Podcast hört und irgendwie deinen dich da auch reden hört in dem Podcast, da find ich auch, dass es Ich mein, ihr macht da ja den, ihr bringt KI der breiten Masse in Deutschland irgendwie näher. Also das heißt, es sind jetzt nicht in erster Linie Techies, wie jetzt bei uns die Zielgruppe ist, so wo man sagt, man geht irgendwie in die Technik in Finessen rein. Aber ich find auch, wenn man dir dabei zuhört, merkt man, obwohl das auf der Flughöhe ist, dass da draußen jeder verstehen kann, dass Du sehr tief irgendwie in den Themen drin bist und irgendwie weiß, wovon Du redest und irgendwie an den richtigen Stellen irgendwie den Kontext gibst, den da draußen auch Leute verstehen können. Man merkt aber, Du hast dich im Detail damit auseinandergesetzt. Vielleicht kannst Du uns mal, wenn wir jetzt wirklich auf das Heute gehen, weil damit wir gleich noch 'n bisschen Zeit haben über KI im Allgemeinen zu reden. Wie sieht denn heute so dein Alltag, Arbeitsalltag son bisschen aus und wie kriegst Du es hin, dir diese Themen so anzuschauen, so ohne Also wir wir als Techis sind ja so, wir haben ja einen Anwendungsfall, probieren KI zu nutzen, Anwendungsfälle damit umzusetzen und reden ja auch in 'nem Podcast dann auch darüber, über wie wir's in der Arbeit irgendwie einsetzen. Aber so wie wie machst Du das? Wie stellt man sich das wie stellt man sich das vor, wo es ja das Gefühl so ist so, das Produkt ist am Ende immer den Leuten was davon zu erzählen so und welche Projekte sucht man sich, irgendwie da am Ball zu bleiben und in diese Details reinzugehen so. Also das ist, glaube ich, was, was für uns als Techies und vielleicht unseren Zuhörern so nicht so natürlich kommt, zu verstehen, wie dein Arbeitsalltag so als GFAI Officer und Podcast Host zu dem Thema aussieht. Ja. Ja, also erst mal danke, weil das ist voll cool zu hören, dass das so ankommt. Also das ist das, was wir versuchen mit dem Podcast halt wirklich fürn breites Publikum. Nicht zu oberflächlich zu sein, dass es die Techies langweilt, aber halt auch nicht so, dass es nicht Weil wir wir wissen, es muss ganz viele Mütter und Väter und Omas und Opas auch hören und auch irgendwas mitnehmen können daraus. Also die Techies langweilt ihr auf jeden Fall nicht. Ich hör's sehr gern. Das ist echt, das ist echt supercool. Aber wir kriegen auch viele Zuschriften und freuen uns immer, wenn Leute dann auch so, wenn wir dann merken, oh, die haben echte technische Berufe und echte Techies, gehören uns auch. Das ist schon irgendwie eine Auszeichnung, weil ja, irgendwie gibt's so in den Köpfen son bisschen diese Trennung halt zwischen so Journalismus, Sozialwissenschaften, Kulturleuten und dann halt den Leuten, die wirklich echte Techniken mit Zahlen und Semikolons Semikolon, ne. Wissen, wo die Semikolon ziehen müssen. Ich versuch, also ich glaub, was was für mich gut war, ist, dass ich einfach keine Angst vor dem Thema hatte jemals. Und das irgendwie geschafft habe, auch durch coole Leute mich rum wie mein Kollege damals oder halt wie Andre Caparthy, die halt dann einfach Dinge teilen auf eine Art, dass man als Nuntaggy das verstehen kann. Ich hab mich immer getraut, da einzutauchen und ich hab mich nicht abschrecken lassen, auch von technischen Papers oder von ja, halt davon auch mal Code zu lesen oder auch mal Dinge Dinge zu lesen, wo wo man vielleicht nicht ins letzte Detail, wo ich vielleicht nicht ins letzte Detail eigentlich die Grundlagen hab, das zu verstehen. Ich glaub, das ist superwichtig, dass man einfach keine Berührungsängste hat. Das ist 'n bisschen, wie wenn man eine Sprache lernt. Und es gibt dann Leute, die trauen sich nie, die Sprache zu sprechen, obwohl sie sie eigentlich total gut können, weil sie einfach vor jedem Grammatikfehler, den sie machen könnten, Angst haben. Mhm. Und andere Leute oder dieselben Leute, wenn sie 'n Bier getrunken haben, trauen sich einfach zu reden. Und dann dann klappt's auch total und das merkt man. Also da bin ich auch total dankbar all den anderen Leuten, die Content machen, quasi auf 'nem noch technischeren Niveau. Weil ich hör total viele Podcasts selber, ich guck total viele Youtube Videos. Jannick Kirchher ist zum Beispiel noch so 1, den ich super finde, der erklärt immer KI Paper. Und der erklärt die halt auf eine Art, dass ich was mitnehme. Und ich hör auch viele Podcasts, die einfach eigentlich technischer sind, als es als mein Alltag betreffen würde. Aber irgendwas nehm ich mit. Und wenn ich halt dann 20 Prozent von dem, was besprochen wird, nicht verstehe, ist auch egal, weil keine Ahnung. Ich merk ich merk dann, glaub ich, wenn's wichtig wird und dann hockt man sich halt hin und dann geht man wirklich 'n Paper einfach Satz für Satz durch und schaut die Begriffe nach, die man nicht versteht oder heutzutage lässt sich das von 'nem Chatbot erklären. Und ich glaub, das reicht. Also das ist ja auch was, was viele Menschen im Journalismus auszeichnet, wenn man wenn man einfach Bock hat, sich auch einzugraben in so Themen und Spaß dadran hat, in sone Recherche rabbit Hole zu gehen, dann kann man ja alles lernen. Und das heißt, das ist für mich auch son bisschen die Challenge in meinem Alltag, weil also Du hast gesagt, ne, vieles lernt man ja auch irgendwie beim Doing, bei Projekten. Ich versuch da son bisschen eine Balance zu finden. Also ich versuch meinen meinen Alltagsjob zu machen und daneben so wohl Zeit zu haben, einfach wirklich ganz viel zu konsumieren, ganz viel zu lesen und Podcasts zu hören und Youtube Videos zu gucken über die Dinge, die ich lernen will. Und dann versuch ich auch noch halt natürlich viel praktisch zu machen und selber einfach immer die neuesten Tools auszuprobieren. Und da ist, glaub ich, mein Glück, dass sich auch die verschiedenen Projekte, die ich mach, gegenseitig befeuern. Weil weil dadurch, dass wir halt einfach einmal die Woche eine Folge KI Podcast machen, ich muss ja wissen, worüber ich spreche. Das heißt, ich bin son bisschen auch gezwungen. Ich ich muss halt meinen Tag haben, wo ich dann viel lese und einfach mitkriege, was das Neueste ist. Und wir haben ja immer auch eine Rubrik am Ende, was hab ich diese Woche mit KI gemacht? Also es ist so, es motiviert mich quasi selber, dass ich immer auch auch Dinge ausprobiere. Genau. Und das versuch ich ja natürlich in meinem Alltagsjob auch, also bei bei der Deutschen Welle manage ich eher KI Projekte und manage 'n Team und versuch also strukturell dem Laden zu helfen, dass dass halt die richtigen Dinge passieren, strategisch und praktisch, dass wir bei KI weiterkommen. Aber auch da versuch ich mir einfach die Zeit zu nehmen, dass ich halt auch mal selber was ausprobiere oder dass mich dass ich mir mich halt mit jemand zusammensetze, der 'n Projekt gemacht hat und und wirklich sag, erklär mir mal, wie das funktioniert. Und ja, und ich glaub, dadurch, dass ich halt schon lese, was quasi an der Cuting Edge passiert oder halt die Youtube Videos gucke, die mir die neuesten Paper erklären, hilft es mir halt auch dann bestimmte Fragen zu stellen an die Techies bei der Deutschen Welle. Also auch wenn ich nicht auf dem Niveau wie die dann genau verstehe, was sie machen, hilft es, glaub ich, trotzdem, dass ich quasi so diesen breiteren Blick hab und dann aus 'ner Produktsicht zum Beispiel dann noch mal nachfrage, wo wollen wir damit eigentlich hin und wie würdest Du das machen? Und hast schon diesen oder jeden jeden Ansatz probiert. Ja cool. Ich find, Du hast grad irgendwie einen interessanten Satz so irgendwie gesagt so zu dem, dass viel davon auch irgendwie Marketing ist so im ganzen Bereich. Wenn wir mal irgendwie vielleicht mal 'n bisschen jetzt auf das Thema KI irgendwie kommen, dann haben wir 1 jetzt vorhin darüber gesprochen so. Du warst 2017 irgendwie, hast da einen neuronales Netzwerk trainiert, irgendwie Text zu generieren und gesagt, das wird niemals irgendwie sinnvoll 'n Text schreiben. Jetzt sind wir 9 Jahre später und können's, glaub ich, sagen, so, das hat schafft's definitiv. Und ich glaub, wir sind uns auch wahrscheinlich alle in dieser Runde und einigen anderen Runden einig, dass dass das noch sehr viel schneller, sehr viel weitergehen wird und uns alle sehr stark beeinflussen wird in unserem Arbeitsalltag und tendenziell sehr schnell noch sehr viel mehr können wird, als es jetzt grade tut. Und andererseits bin ich immer, wenn ich da draufblick, irgendwie so ambivalent mit diesem Teil, was davon irgendwie Marketing ist und ich mich immer so mit diesem so, ja, ich merke, was das fürn Einfluss jetzt auf mich hat. Und ich weiß, es wird noch 'n sehr viel stärkeren Einfluss haben und ich muss mich damit beschäftigen und muss irgendwie gucken, wie sich mein Arbeitsalltag auch verändert. Und andererseits ist irgendwie, wenn man dann Leute aus diesem Bereich hört und irgendwie auch in anderen Podcasts hört, so ich auch gerne so was wie Darry of the Hero, wo auch viele Leute sind, da wird immer von den so apokalyptischen Szenarien, es wird immer der Begriff AGI wird da irgendwie immer so viel genannt und irgendwie, wie sehr es alles disruptieren wird, was wir irgendwie tun, weil in dieser Vorstellung am Ende alles, was irgendwie Knowledge Work ist von der AI getan wird und wir am Ende nur noch mit bedingungslosem Grundeinkommen dasitzen und die AI den Rest irgendwie steuert. Wo ich irgendwie so denke, ja, dass es absolut ist, geh ich total mit. Aber irgendwie diese Vorstellung davon ist für mich immer ein so, ich packe das so stark in diese Marketingschiene, weil ich denke, da müssen noch so viel Dinge passieren. Ich glaub auch so viel grundlegendere Dinge, dieses Szenario wirklich ein realistisches Szenario ist. Und frag mich einfach so bei diesem Ganzen, wenn ich darauf blicke so, ist, glauben die das wirklich oder wie viel ist davon Marketing so? Und ich würd mir so von dir eigentlich könnt ich gerne hören so, wie wie wie ist dein Blick dadrauf son bisschen auf dieses so, was davon ist Marketing, was davon ist realistisch? Wie blickst Du so auf die nächsten Jahre und diesen Begriff, den den grade aus dieser Tech Bubble, so der AGI Begriff, wie er wie er so da draußen geprägt wird. So hast Du da 'n ähnlichen Blick drauf? Hast Du da 'n ambivalentteren Blick drauf? Ja, also ich seh das ganz ähnlich. Und ich frag mich, ich frag mich genau das auch immer. Ich frag mich, was glauben die Leute im Silicon Valley zum Beispiel selber? Ich glaub, mein Blick dadrauf ist, ich würde nie davon ausgehen, dass alle Leute ehrlich sind, weil einfach manche Leute sind einfach zu gut, zu erfolgreich darin und teilweise sehen wir auch die Beispiele, wo sie nicht ähnlich sind. Und also auch das, was ich von innen gesehen hab, das wär total naiv zu glauben, dass Du dir nicht überlegst, was ist unsere PR Botschaft, die total unabhängig davon sein kann, was Du in Wirklichkeit die letzten paar Monate gemacht hast, sondern ne, Du erzählst immer auch eine Story. Du überlegst immer, was macht dich erfolgreich? Und also das, was deine Ziele sind, wir haben ja bei Amazon auch über dieses datengetriebene geredet. Dein Ziel ist halt Marktmacht oder dein Ziel ist Return on Investment oder dein Ziel ist, welche Metrik auch immer zu optimieren, im Zweifel am Ende des Tages Geld aufm Konto von Jeff Bezos. So, das das ist, glaub ich, das, was zählt für die meisten Menschen. Und ich glaub, wenn Du nicht diese Denke hast, dann wirst Du auch in den meisten Fällen nicht CEO und dann kommst Du nicht so hoch. Oder Du wirst nicht diese große Techfirma. Du wirst halt nicht dieser Riese auf dem Markt, der die ganzen anderen aufkauft und der halt wirklich so den Markt für sich so behaupten kann, wenn Du nicht son bisschen diese Denke hast. Also son Predatory Mindset irgendwie, das das klingt jetzt total wertend, aber ich mein das tatsächlich einfach halt nur auf dem auf dem faktischen Level von, was ist das Ziel? Wo worauf arbeitest Du hin jede Woche? Dass dein Unternehmen größer wird und die anderen Das ist das, was man im im Tech Bereich sieht, ja. Genau. Deswegen versuch ich immer, jede Pressemitteilung, jeden Launch, alles, was so passiert im KI Bereich schon auch mit dieser kritischen Haltung zu sehen und halt zu überlegen, also einfach zu wissen, im Hinterkopf zu wissen, das, was die mir erzählen, ist nicht zwingend genau das, was die Wahrheit ist und was sie denken oder nicht die ganze Wahrheit, was sie denken. Ich glaub aber auch, dass es schon viele Leute im im Silicon Valley oder im KI Bereich gibt, die schon auch da arbeiten, weil sie halt auch Sci Fi Nerds sind und auch einfach an an die Story glauben. Und die die Story ist ja auch Die Story hat einen Wert an sich, also diese Erzählung oder dieser Glaube daran, dass man jetzt so das nächste große Ding der Menschheit baut und dass wir vielleicht damit auch dann was total Großartiges erreichen. Ich glaub, das muss sich nicht ausschließen, dass die Branche an sich teilweise einfach halt wirklich ihren PR Fokus hat und ihre Ziele hat und es trotzdem aber Leute auch selber ihre eigene Story glauben oder halt auch einfach ihren Teil beitragen zu wollen, zu was, das sie denken, dass gut ist und dass das auch in Teilen gut ist. Weil ich glaub auch, viele Leute können ja auch nicht oder wollen nicht an was arbeiten, an das sie nicht glauben. Und deswegen ja, ich hab son bisschen die Vermutung, es gibt beides. Aber was ich spannend finde an der ganzen Sache ist halt schon, dass diese Narrativ so superstark ist. Also wenn man auch, ne, auch jetzt in den Gerichtsfällen, die's zum Beispiel gibt, wenn man dann diese E-Mails bekommt, die die hin- und herschreiben und so was da, weil man weiß einfach, wie die Enzropic Geschwister dann da drüber sprechen, wie sie von OpenAI weggegangen sind und die diese ganzen Dinge. Es ist schon 'n superinteressantes Biotop, find ich. Also es ist wirklich sone sone Welt, die die sich da bauen und die die sich teilweise erzählen. Und vielleicht gibt's ja dann teilweise Zyniker und teilweise nicht, aber die Story an sich ist, glaub ich, total stark. Wir sind die wichtigsten Menschen der Welt, weil wir bauen einfach so die nächste Stufe der Evolution. Und das kann die Welt verändern zum Guten und zum Schlechten. Und das, die PR Effekte kannst Du natürlich nutzen, wie Du willst, zu sagen, ah, bitte reguliert uns, weil weil das wird alles so böse, in Klammern unausgesprochen. Macht mal Regulierung, weil wir sind jetzt schon die Größten und dann holt unsere Konkurrenz nicht auf. Oder Du kannst sagen, bitte reguliert uns nicht, weil wir müssen noch innovativ sein und ihr dürft uns nicht bremsen. Und Achtung, Europa reguliert ja immer nur und dann wird es aber nur dazu führen, dass sie dass sie zurückgelassen werden und oder China, Achtung China, ihr dürft uns nicht regulieren, weil sonst baut baut China zuerst die AGI und dann haben wir aber 'n Problem und so. Ich glaub, das das wird alles für sich genutzt, aber das ist für mich irgendwie nicht so stark zu trennen. Was ist quasi, was ist die Realität und was ist einfach eine Sci Fi Geschichte, die total gut funktioniert? Ja. Ja, ich glaub auch, dass die die Trennung davon ist superschwierig. Und wie Du auch sagst, die Story funktioniert ja auch. Und ich glaub, wir sind ja auch in 'nem Bereich, in dem wir auch nie da gewesene Fundingsummen brauchen, überhaupt diese Ziele zu erreichen. Und ich denke, allein dafür braucht es eben diese große Story, weil einem das ist 'n bisschen schwieriger zu sagen mit, ja, wir werden schon viele Bereiche disruptieren. Einige Leute werden AI nutzen, investiert doch mal bitte mehrere 100000000000 Dollar in uns so. Also das AGI- und Sci Fi Szenario und dass wir hier über die den die nächste Evolutionsstufe der Menschheit entscheiden, lässt sich auf jeden Fall besser besser verkaufen so. Ja und krass, wie gut das funktioniert. Also das wundert mich manchmal. Also dass es halt wirklich so, so gut funktioniert, also dass so viele Leute das kaufen. Aber ja. Das wollt ich auch sagen. Ich mein, hätte man früher irgendwie diese Story mal gebracht, wahrscheinlich hätte man meistens gesagt bekommen, so ja, nee, das ist Quatsch. Und jetzt wird's halt geglaubt. Und ich glaub, das liegt auch viel daran, dass A1 schon so viel Disruption gebracht hat. Also so viel, wie Du sagst, so vor 9 Jahren hättest Du nie gedacht, dass das geht. Und sie haben's aber doch geschafft, aber sie haben auf 1 gewissen Ebene das Unmögliche geschafft oder das Undenkbare. Mhm. Und ich glaube, das lässt sich dann natürlich leicht übertragen und jeder will da auch irgendwie dran Oder viele, glaub ich, finden's gut daran zu glauben. Und wenn's Gründe dafür gibt, das zu machen, dann kann man das auch so fahren, ne. Aber ich mein, wie mach's, also mich würd mir noch mal interessieren, wie Du's dann schaffst sozusagen, was machst Du denn mit soner Pressemitteilung, wo Du das Gefühl hast, okay, die sind nicht ganz ehrlich. Also wie findest Du dann für dich den Teil heraus, den Du irgendwie für realistisch hältst, für irgendwie Weil deine Aufgabe ist es ja auch irgendwie, daraus was zu ziehen, was Du dann weitergeben kannst, wo Du denkst, da steckt Wert drin. So, also das find ich nicht so einfach. Ja. Ich überleg grad, ob mir ob mir 'n Beispiel einfällt. Aber ich glaub, es hilft halt zu wissen, was auch so Corporate Floskeln sind. Und son bisschen son Gefühl dafür zu haben, was wird gesagt und was wird auch nicht gesagt? Also ich ich glaub, mir fallen dann Dinge auf, wenn ich eine Pressemitteilung lese oder wenn ich eine Launch Präsentation sehe, dann merkt man ja zum Beispiel, man merkt, ob die Demo live ist oder nicht. Oder man merkt, welche Cases die demonstrieren und und welche nicht. Und dann, wenn man dazu noch das technische Verständnis hat, von was was eigentlich grade so State of the Art ist oder was sie versuchen zu sagen, was jetzt halt so der nächste Schritt ist, den sie geschafft haben, dann kann man, glaub ich, son bisschen einschätzen, wie viel wie viel Bullshit ist da dabei? Oder ja, oder präsentieren sie jetzt was, was sie wirklich fertig gebaut haben? Oder präsentieren sie jetzt wieder eine Story, die dann halt in 6 Monaten launchen wird oder coming soon Mhm. Launchen wird. Und genau, ich versuch das schon einfach son bisschen zu dekonstruieren, was man auch ganz gut machen kann mit Benchmarks zum Beispiel, ne. Das halt, ich glaub, man muss einfach immer quasi versuchen, ein Level dahinterzugehen und zu fragen, was sagen sie? Und was ist aber, wenn ich nachfragen würde, was wär dahinter? Wenn ich wenn die sagen, wir haben die Halluzinationen reduziert von 7 Prozent auf 5 Prozent in dem Bereich so und so oder wir haben bei irgend 'nem Benchmark bessere Zahlen bekommen, dann siehst Du ja, was sie quasi dahinter hängen an Quellen. Ganz, also haben die überhaupt eine Definition von Halluzinationen gegeben? Hat sich die Definition vielleicht geändert seit der letzten Pressemitteilung? Und das das find ich irgendwie auch so lustig im KI Bereich, weil ganz viel hat ja so diesen Paperaufbau. Also ganz viel ist ja, ich immer nicht, wie man das ausspricht, dieses, also also diese Latex Paper. Ja, ja. Die so wissenschaftlich aussehen. Ja. Aber ganz oft ist da ja nichts dahinter. Wenn Du wirklich guckst, was da ist denn in den Fußnoten, dann ist sind das irgendwelche, keine Ahnung, zitieren die dann 'n Blogartikel von sich selber oder oder in der Fußnote ist eigentlich ja dann nur noch ja keine Quelle, sondern einfach nur noch 'n Satz, den sie halt nicht in den normalen Text reingeschrieben haben, der aber eigentlich nicht mehr Kontext gibt. Und das ist, glaub ich, wichtig. Ich ich muss ja ganz oft überhaupt nicht sagen, das, was die sagen, ist falsch. Sondern ich muss ja nur einschätzen können, wissen wir 100 Prozent, dass das richtig ist? Oder muss man da 'n bisschen vorsichtig sein? Und und dann am Ende können wir alle nur spekulieren, weil also das hab ich oft genug bewiesen, was in 'nem halben Jahr ist oder was in 'nem Jahr ist, das weiß ich auch nicht. Aber ich glaub, man kann halt ganz gut gucken, wie ist die Sachlage? Was sind die Beweise, die wir haben? Und was was wissen wir, was jetzt schon funktioniert? Und dann kann man's ausprobieren und selber testen oder halt die Testberichte von anderen Leuten lesen und sich angucken. Und dann dann merkt man ja schnell den Gap Mhm. Zwischen dem, was versprochen wird und dem, was möglich ist, ja. Jetzt hast Du grad gesagt, Du kannst auch noch spekulieren. Du weißt auch nicht, was in 'nem halben Jahr ist. Gut, dass jetzt meine nächste und gegen einen Frage auch eher in die Richtung geht, so was wirklich 'n spekulieren. Weil wir haben jetzt son bisschen die Brille hin zu und ist diese Story irgendwie, also ist das nur 'n Marketingding oder ist das 'n realistisches Szenario? Andererseits wissen wir, Garen und ich hier als Developer, unsere unser Alltag hat sich auf jeden Fall stark verändert durch AI. Dein Alltag, weil wie Text generiert wird total. Du hast schon an einem Profession, dass Du vielleicht mal, dass Du Rapperin bist an die KI verloren. Und vielleicht kannst Du uns mal so, was glaubst Du, wenn wir jetzt mal eher nicht in 4, 5 Jahren blicken, sondern irgendwie auf dieses Jahr? So in welchen Bereichen werden wir als Nächstes so Disruption erleben, wie wir's vielleicht jetzt grade hier in bei uns bei dir, was jetzt wirklich Textgenerierung angeht, was dein täglich Brot ist und bei uns Codegenerierung, was ja auch nur eine Form von Text ist. Also was was glaubst Du, sind so die nächsten Bereiche, die sich die großen AI Firmen irgendwie angehen, wo sie sagen, jetzt haben sie ja grade angefangen diesen Jahres mit Co Work, also mehr irgendwie dann auch vielleicht in die Projektmanagementbereich zu gehen. So, wenn wir jetzt mal doch mal probieren, ein bisschen in die Zukunft zu blicken, so, was sind so die nächsten Bereiche, die da von, wo AI noch mehr Einzug erhalten wird in den nächsten Monaten, in diesem Jahr? So, was welche Bereiche werden dann darüber so sprechen, wie wir als Developer darüber reden? Du hast was ganz Wichtiges angesprochen, nämlich die Bereiche, in denen das gut funktioniert grade oder in denen wir die die krassesten Fortschritte, die krasseste Disruption auch sehen, ist alles, was mit Text zu tun hat. Also Coding funktioniert ja deswegen besonders gut, weil es auch eine sehr strukturierte Form von Text ist. Also wenn ich eine Maschine habe, die halt den nächsten Drucken vorhersagt, die die Textmengen analysieren kann und verstehen kann, was für Zusammenhänge gibt's da, dann ist dann ist eigentlich klar, dass Coding gut funktioniert, weil der der ganze Sinn von Code ist ja, dass man 'n Text schreibt, der möglichst strukturiert ist, damit man halt damit man es schafft, dass eine Maschine damit arbeitet und damit nachvollziehbar ist und damit's, also damit Du quasi den Text verbindest mit was Physischem, was dann am Ende die Elektronen auf 'nem Chip sind. Also da da ist quasi die Verbindung zwischen der echten Welt und dem Text sehr viel verlässlicher, sehr viel direkter als bei vielen anderen Formen von Text ist. Und das das andere Extrem, was auch gut funktioniert, ist halt das der kreative Text. Deswegen haben wir ja auch eine Kolumne damals gemacht und nicht eine Nachrichtentext zum Beispiel, weil je subjektiver was ist oder je eher es einfach darum geht, dass der Text gut klingt oder dass es Vibes sind oder dass ja, dass es Geschwafel ist ehrlicherweise, desto weniger schlimm ist es, dass Du nicht terministisches System hast, sondern es ist halt einfach, ja, wenn's gut klingt, dann hat es seinen Wert. Und da gibt's viele Formen von Text und auch nicht nur Text, sondern auch Musik und Bilder, wo's halt einfach reicht, wenn der Wahl stimmt. Und wenn's am Ende so klingt wie 'n Schlager, dann ist es 'n Schlager. Und dann ist es egal, ob den Schlager eine KI geschrieben hat oder oder 'n Mensch. Und das heißt, ich glaub, das ist wichtig zu verstehen, wenn man überlegt, wo wo wird das hingehen? Das Spannendste finde ich, dass man halt jetzt immer stärker merkt, je größer die Kontextfenster werden und je besser auch die das Management die Sprachmodelle oder die Foundation Modelle drumrum funktionieren. Man merkt halt, wie viel Pseudodenken die Arbeit mit Text ermöglicht. Weil wenn ich 'n Projekt manage und mir überleg, was ist mein nächster Schritt, dann kann ich das auch in Text ausdrücken. Also dann kann ich das Nicht jeder Mensch denkt so und nicht alles, was wir denken, ist ist so in in Text auszudrücken. Aber ganz viel von dem, was ich in meinem Alltag mache, ist ja, wenn ich so paraphrasieren will, ah, ich habe eine E-Mail bekommen. Die E-Mail sagt mir, dass Person x y krank ist. Das heißt, was muss ich jetzt als Nächstes tun? Ah, ich sollte jemand finden, der die Vertretung von der Person ist und die dann fragen, ob sie Zeit hat, das Projekt weiterzuführen, so. Also oder in irgend 'ner Form kann ich ja in in Worten ausdrücken, was sinnvoll der nächste Schritte ist. Und da ist Sprache quasi nicht so einfach zu unterscheiden von Denken. Und das ist das, was wir jetzt grade sehen mit diesen argentischen Systemen, was so spannend ist, was mich auch wiederum überrascht hat, wie gut das funktioniert oder wie schnell das quasi auf dieser Skala auch auch möglich ist. Also dass man einfach auch diese Rechenleistung, diese Kontextfenster dahinterhauen kann und dass das geht. Da ich ich glaub, Du hast es angedeutet, da glaub ich, passiert jetzt halt viel, dass man versuchen wird, verschiedene Systeme miteinander zu verknüpfen und den KI Systemen möglichst Zugang zu geben zu allen möglichen Interfaces, dass sie halt so diese Art von Projektmanagement machen können oder halt oder ja, in diesen menschlichen Bereich von Knowledgework irgendwie reingehen können. Weil ne, dass sie 'n Text zusammenfassen können, weiß man schon, dass sie irgendwie auch grob was recherchieren können im Internet, dass sie dann verstehen können, Zusammenhänge herstellen können zwischen dem, was sie recherchiert haben und da irgendwie 'n Output generieren, cool. Ich glaub, dass dieser nächste Schritt schon sehr schwierig sein kann, weil wir jetzt halt an den Punkt kommen, wo wir nicht diese einfache Kette haben zwischen Input und Output. Also in dem Moment, wo's eine Zusammenfassung geht, dann brauch ich eben nur das Sprachmodell. Ich muss nur den Input reingeben, das Sprachmodell macht sein Ding und dann kommt der Output raus. Bei Coding ist es ja auch so. Ich hab 'n total begrenztes Umfeld. Also ich hab einfach 'n 'n Datagesystem, das ist egal, wie viele Dateien das sind, aber die liegen, die können alle in einem Ordner liegen und dann kann die KI da drauf zugreifen und der Text an sich reicht, Arbeit damit zu machen. Wenn wir jetzt in andere Bereiche der Knowledgework gehen, in zum Beispiel Projektmanagement, Dann hab ich halt plötzlich aber nicht mehr nur sonen begrenzten Bereich, sondern hab ich total viele Unbekannte. Dann hab ich die ganzen Menschen, die auch auch offline miteinander reden, die auch krank sind, die auch sich aufm Flur treffen, die teilweise in dem Lateinmanagementsystem arbeiten, indem sie arbeiten sollen, aber teilweise auch nicht. Dann hab ich die ganzen verschiedenen Softwareschnittstellen von ganz unterschiedlichen Anbietern, wo's dann darauf ankommt, ob die KI die Schnittstelle sinnvoll nutzen kann. Und da reden wir ja auch grade viel drüber, was diese Schnittstellen der Zukunft sein können, wie man die anpassen muss, was man quasi für Protokolle dahinterlegt, damit die KIs möglichst Zugang zu diesen ganzen Dingen kriegen. Aber ich glaub, das ist was, was noch unterschätzt wird. Und jetzt merkte, ich zöger aber, das hat, glaub ich, wieder mal sone Prognose wird, das es kann sein, dass es dann alles schneller geht und dann mehr Geld und mehr mehr Leistung dahinter gepackt wird, als ich jetzt denke. Aber ich glaub, da ist schon noch einiges zu tun. Also bis man unser unser ganzes menschlichen menschliches, bis man unser ganzes menschliches Arbeiten so weit umgestellt hat, dass es wirklich effektiv ist, dass KI Systeme dadrin arbeiten. Und dass man dann noch das auf eine Art geschafft hat, dass es einigermaßen sicher ist und vor geschützt ist. Da sind, glaub ich, noch einige große Probleme, die man lösen muss. Was nicht heißt, dass nicht so Molt Bots und und ähnliche Systeme auch total total trennten können in Bereichen, wo einem halt die Sicherheit vielleicht nicht so wichtig ist. Aber da da seh ich jetzt jedenfalls dieses Jahr noch nicht irgendwie die große Revolution und das totale Umkrempeln unserer Arbeitswelt, weil am Ende geht's auch Sicherheit, es geht auch Kosten Nutzen. Wir sehen, dass das ja auch 'n Bereich, das ja total stark subventioniert ist. Das habt ihr auch angesprochen, ne. Also da einfach die, was ich halt für die Investments grade für eine Story brauche, ist was anderes, als was ich am Ende in 5 Jahren brauchen werde, wenn ich wirklich will, dass das nachhaltig finanzierbar ist und dass ich mir auch den Strom leisten kann für das Datencenter und nicht grade nur mit dem Kapital, das ich habe, vielleicht irgendwie quer finanziere, dass ich halt möglichst die größte Marketsare bekomme. Sehr lange Antwort, keine wirkliche Prognose, sorry, aber Aber ja, ich mein, grade so in diese dieser Arbeitsprozesse irgendwie reingeht, so da würde ich ja allein auch aus der These mitgehen, dass man sagt, das ist ja auch wieder eine Anreizfrage son bisschen, ne, weil Du meinst ja auch für die Story, die die großen Unternehmen brauchen. Klar, sie müssen irgendwann rentabel werden, aber erst mal müssen sie ja auch das erste Mal, das, was sie jetzt auf dem Weg dahin beweisen müssen, ist, dass sie überhaupt dieses Wachstum bekommen, was ihre Einnahmenseite angeht. Und wenn man sie einfach anschaut so, dass aktuell so was jetzt Subskriptions angeht und so was einfach der größte Kuchen, der zu holen ist, immer noch ist, wenn man Enterprise Software irgendwie herstellt und sagt, wenn man sich anschaut, wie viel über Teams gemacht wird, irgendwie Office 365. Das sind alles diese Tools, die irgendwie wohl dann im großen Scale Subscriptions abgeschlossen werden. Und ich glaube, das ist einfach der Markt, in dem die AI Unternehmen auch so den nächsten großen Teil vom Kuchen bekommen können, in ihrer Story halt genug Futter zu haben, dass sie sagen können, hier, schaut mal, wir sind wieder 10 x gewachsen, so unsere Story funktioniert weiterhin, AGI als die Karotte da vorne und alle Zwischenschritte, sozusagen den das einfach nur das den Umsatz wachsen lassen zu können. Deswegen glaub ich allein der Anreiz stimmt auch für die Unternehmen, dass sie genau da hingehen wollen, weil ich glaube, da ist der nächste große Bereich, in dem sich ein Kuchen, dem es gilt, sich einen Kuchen aufzuteilen. Deswegen auf jeden Fall mitgehen, wann total kluger Gedanke, ja. Ob das dieses Jahr ist, werden wir sehen. Wenn wir auf die Zeit blicken, ist leider, ich wir ich glaub, Gordon und ich könnten noch ewig mit dir darüber weiterreden. Wir kommen auch 'n bisschen ans Ende der Zeit. Beim CTO Special hören wir meistens mit der Frage auf, dann noch mal die Frage zurückzustellen. Und zwar, gibt es irgendeine Frage, die wir diesem Gespräch nicht gestellt haben, wo Du dachtest, ah, wenn ich mit Fabio und Garet in diesem Techpodcast rede, dann müssen wir auf jeden Fall oder werden wir auf jeden Fall darüber reden. Gibt es irgendwas, wo's wo Du das Gefühl hast, so Fabi Gareth, die Frage hättet ihr mir noch stellen sollen. Falls ja, ist das deine Chance, sie dir selbst zu stellen oder den Raum zu Ihr wart ihr wart total gute Interview. Also es hat mir mega Spaß gemacht. Ich mir fällt jetzt auch keine Frage ein. Ich find auch die letzte Frage sehr gut. Vielleicht darf ich noch Dinge empfehlen. Was magst Du uns empfehlen? Ja, Marie, sehr gerne. Gib mir son paar Empfehlungen. Ja. Also es ist jetzt spontan, hab ich jetzt nichts vorbereitet, aber ich hau einfach mal 'n paar Sachen raus. Ich folge Joanna Brison total gerne, ist eine Professorin an der Hürerty School, die auch sehr gut diese analysiert und auch was die Politik und die Regulierung und die quasi demokratischen Strömungen dahinter, nicht demokratischen, die demokratischen Implikationen, die das gesellschaftliche Drumherum angeht. Das ist auf jeden Fall eine eine Folgeempfehlung. Ich hab ja eine Kircher erwähnt, dessen Youtube Videos ich mag. Ich finde Arvin Sarannajan und Sergeasz Capur total gut. Die haben einen Blog, die haben auch 'n Buch geschrieben über KI. Und irgendwie wollt ich noch unbedingt empfehlen. Ah ja, ich les grad das Buch von Audrey Tang, das die ehemalige Digitalministerin von Taiwan. Das Buch heißt Plurality und es ist auch 'n Open Source Projekt. Also es wurde ist 'n Open Source geschriebenes Buch. Und da geht's darum, wie man Technologie unter anderem KI einsetzen kann halt für eine bessere, demokratischere, freiheitliche Zukunft. Das find ich total inspirierend, weil das ist genau das, was wir brauchen eigentlich, ne, wenn wir halt so diese Storys haben, die halt geprägt sind von einfach 'nem sehr bestimmten Milieu, hauptsächlich ins Silicon Valley, 'n bisschen auch in China. Was deren Vorstellung von der Welt ist, ist nicht die Vorstellung von den meisten Menschen auf der Welt, glaub ich. Aber es fehlen ja oft son bisschen zu Gegennarrative. Was könnten wir denn noch machen, anstatt einfach immer weiter diese Tech Giganten zu befeuern und immer weiter zu zentralisieren und einfach nur am Ende zu kaufen, was die gebaut haben. Und da find ich dieses Buch, bin grad in der Mitte, aber kann ich schon jetzt sagen, find ich total beflügelnd so, einfach noch mal zu denken, was man mit Technologie noch alles machen könnte. Sehr cool. Vielen Dank. Ich hab probiert, alles aufzuschreiben, weil ich werd dich im Nachhinein noch mal unbedingt Ich bin ja auch nicht. Wahrscheinlich so ist alles perfekt runtergeschrieben. Das heißt, wir packen das alles in die Shownotes. Und dann werb ich jetzt vielleicht auch noch eine Empfehlung mit dazu, weil es wird bestimmt der eine oder andere sich gefragt haben, was war Fabis komische Anspielung mit dem, dass die Rap Karriere von Marie wegen KI irgendwie gestorben ist? Kauft mein Rap Album. Genau, kauft das Rap Album. Aber wenn ihr die Auflösung wollt, dann hört doch gern mal in den KI Podcast rein von Marie. Wir packen mal den Link zu der Folge, wo das geklärt wird, was es damit auf sich hat, einfach auch mal in die Shownotes. Also hört da sehr gerne rein. Ich hab's ja auch schon mal gesagt, so ich auf meinem Arbeitswegörchen auch sehr gerne mal, weil's für mich auch gute Einordnung einfach noch mal gibt. Und es ist bisschen anders eingeordnet, als wenn man sich sonen Techgy Podcast anguckt, wo es nur diese Details geht, sondern für mich so, dass gute Detailstufe und trotzdem auf 'ner Flughöhe, die mir irgendwie noch mal viel neue Inspiration auch gibt, auch wenn wir uns hier über KI unterhalten. Deswegen da definitiv die Empfehlung noch mal für deinen Podcast. Vielen, vielen Dank. Und dann sag ich, ich hör weiter den programmierbare Podcast und gib dem gute Bewertungen und schreib Fabio Garald nette E-Mails. Das da hast Du schon auch das jetzt am Ende gebracht, was wir sonst auch machen. Also die E-Mail-Podcast at Programmier Punkt bar. Marie, vielen, vielen Dank, dass Du dir Zeit genommen hast. Das hat sehr, sehr viel Spaß gemacht, mit mir da mit dir darüber zu reden. Wir hätten die Zeit auf jeden Fall noch weiterführen können, Echt zu landen. Gut anderthalb Stunden. Hat mir Megaspaß gemacht, genau, gerne wieder. Ich glaub, das ist 1 der ersten Podcasts, wo ich mit mehr Fragen irgendwie rausgehe, als ich reinkomme, weil ich so viele Themen spannend finde und Ich könnt da echt ernsthaft noch ewig mit euch weiterreden. Wo sitzt ihr noch mal? In Bad Nauheim. Aha. Da war ich, glaub ich, noch nie. Aber wenn ich da mal hinkommen bin, bin ich aber wieder gegessen. Frankfurt, ja, Frankfurt. Sehr gerne. Ja. Ja. Sehr, sehr gerne. Ansonsten auch, wenn man, aber das können wir im Auft sprechen. Wir hören noch drin, wir haben noch große Konferenzen, wo Du auch sehr gern gesehener Gast wärst. Das können wir vielleicht im Nachgang noch mal 'n bisschen bisschen besprechen. Also wir wir hätten auf jeden Fall Lust, uns da weiter drüber zu unterhalten. Super. Marie, dank dir. Noch 'n schönen Tag. Euch wie immer vielen Dank fürs Zuhören und bis zum nächsten Mal. Macht's gut. Tschau. Tschau. 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0: Hallo und herzlich willkommen zu einem weiteren CTO Special der programmierbar. Mein Name ist Fabian Fink und mit mir im Studio ist der Liebe\n\nSpeaker 1: Garelt Mogg.\n\nSpeaker 0: Hi, Garelt. Wie ihr wisst, nutzen wir das CTO Special gerne, 'n bisschen versteckt einfach mit Leuten zu reden, mit denen wir uns sehr gerne mal darüber unterhalten wollen, weil sie so spannende Werdegänge haben, dass wir uns die nicht entgehen lassen wollen, auch wenn der Titel nicht offiziell CTO ist. So einen Fall haben wir heute wieder und es ist son bisschen, ich glaub bei mir, vielleicht beim Garald, wenn wir uns noch gar nicht vorher drüber unterhalten, kickt son bisschen das im Posthouse Syndrom, weil hier haben wir jemand, der das, was wir hier so seit ein paar Jahren stiefmütterlich behandelt machen, sehr professionell macht. Und zwar haben wir uns Marie Kilk eingeladen. Marie ist freie Journalistin, sie ist hauptsächlich Chief Air Officer bei der Deutschen Welle.\n\nSie ist 1 von 3 Hosts des bekanntesten deutschen KI Podcast der ARD, der genannt wird der KI Podcast. Sie ist Initiatorin des Zeit Zeit Newsletters natürlich intelligent und war unter anderem aber auch Senior Product Manager bei Amazon für Alexa. Das heißt grade so, Gerald und ich, ja beide sehr, sehr interessiert an dem Thema KI, da haben wir heute jemand da, mit dem wir sehr, sehr gut darüber fachsimpeln können, sind sehr froh, dass sie heute hier ist. Hallo Marie, schön, dass Du da bist.\n\nSpeaker 2: Hi, ich freu mich auch. Ich freu mich immer über KI zu sprechen.\n\nSpeaker 0: Ja, wir wir uns auch, genau. Also das heißt son bisschen, was ihr erwarten könnt, die zweite Hälfte des CTO Specials wird son bisschen mehr sich dann KI drehen und vielleicht auch son bisschen vielleicht mal schauen, was dieses Jahr so, was wir 3 hier zusammen dafür vielleicht predigten und was Marie auch dazu sagt. Aber natürlich wollen wir uns erst mal darüber unterhalten, Marie, wie Du eigentlich da hingekommen bist, was Du jetzt ja gerade alles tust. So der KI Podcast, wie gesagt, ja sehr der eigentlich erfolgreichste deutsche KI Podcast und habe aber auch gerade gesagt, Du bist Chief Eye Officer bei der Deutschen Welle. Vielleicht hast Du erst mal den Leuten son bisschen Kontext gibst, weil ich mein, wir kommen aus der Tech Bubble.\n\nIch glaub, Du, so, wenn ich den Werdegang mir angucke, auch was Du gerade alles parallel machst, ist es eher vielleicht bei Journalisten typisch oder so, Handdampf in allen Gassen zu sein. Bei uns ist es ja eher typisch so, ein Job sehr fokussiert. Erst mal, hab ich da grundsätzlich irgendwas vergessen in der und kannst Du uns erklären, was eigentlich genau die Deutsche Welle ist? Ich glaub, ist nicht jedem Begriff da draußen.\n\nSpeaker 2: Ja, nee, total gerne. Ich ob Du was vergessen hast, weiß ich nicht. Kaum wir da nicht. Genau, das ist schon son bisschen son son Thema bei mir, dass ich immer gerne viele verschiedene Sachen mache. Und so bin ich auch zu dem KI Thema gekommen, weil's so weil's so vielfältig ist.\n\nUnd ich glaub auch, das ist auch 'n Journalistending. Also ich hab mich als Jugendlicher, als Teenie schon für Journalismus interessiert, weil ich einfach wusste, mich interessiert alles. Und ich dachte, Journalismus ist son Beruf, da darf man da darf man switchen die ganze Zeit, ne. Also da kann ich ja so, als ich als Journalistin gearbeitet habe hauptsächlich, wars auch dann wirklich so, hab ich dann in der einen Woche irgendwas recherchiert über keine Ahnung, warum Drohnen jetzt grade so plötzlich so trendy werden, also halt so kleine Videodrohnen. Und in der nächsten Woche durfte ich halt eine KI Expertin anrufen oder mit 'nem Mediziner über 'n Medizinthema sprechen.\n\nAlso das ist schon son son Hanfdampf Ding, glaub ich. Genau, die Deutsche Welle, die ist in in Deutschland nicht so bekannt, sollte sie aber eigentlich sein, weil das ist 'n also 'n wichtiges Instrument auch der deutschen Politik. Das ist nämlich der Auslandsrundfunksender. Also die Deutsche Welle macht Journalismus für die ganze Welt auf 32 Sprachen, weil Deutschland eben sagt, wir es ist auch in unserem Interesse, dass andere Länder einerseits auch wissen, was Deutschland ist. Das ist auch, früher war das noch stärker der Fokus, auch tatsächlich einfach Marketing für Deutschland.\n\nUnd heute immer mehr, leider halt aus geopolitischem Interesse, dass wir halt sagen, wenn die Pressefreiheit eingeschränkt ist in Ländern wie Russland und der Ukraine oder in den USA jetzt verstärkt, dann wollen wir, dass die Leute dort Informationen bekommen aus 'ner demokratischen Perspektive und einfach eine, ja, eine Möglichkeit haben, zu Pressefreiheit Zugang zu bekommen. Und das machen wir teilweise aus den Ländern raus und teilweise aber auch aus Deutschland heraus, je nachdem, wie schlimm die Situation im jeweiligen Land grade ist. Das heißt, wir arbeiten auch viel mit Zensurumgehung und so und sind aber eigentlich 'n ganz normales journalistisches Medienhaus, arbeiten auch journalistisch unabhängig. Also es ist nicht nicht so, dass irgendjemand in der Politik dann diktiert, was wir berichten. Wir berichten einfach nur das, was wir richtig finden, freiheitlich, demokratisch, aber wir bekommen das Geld vom Bundestag.\n\nAlso wir sind quasi öffentlich rechtlich. Das ist die Deutsche Welle. Ja.\n\nSpeaker 0: Sehr interessant. Ja, vielen Dank. Ich glaub, das hat einigen, also vorher auch mir war's auf jeden Fall 'n Begriff, aber so ganz genau war's jetzt die Aufgabenstellung ist so sehr cool, dass Du's für uns noch mal 'n bisschen klargestellt hast. Du hast ja grad gemeint, dass Du als Journalistin ja auch immer zwischen verschiedenen Themen und irgendwie trotzdem das Gefühl, wenn ich mir auch grade die Folgen bei euch beim KI Podcast anschaue, dass Du 'n sehr technischen Blick auf die Dinge hast so und auf jeden Fall da eine technische Brille einnimmst. Und Du warst ja auch bei Amazon, worüber wir dann auch gleich noch mal 'n bisschen sprechen werden.\n\nWeil typischerweise ist es so beim CTO Special, fangen wir an zu fragen, was war denn dein erster Kontakt mit Technologie? Aber vielleicht bevor Du die Frage so beantwortest, würdest Du dich denn erst mal selbst so als als Techy bezeichnen und gerne in dem Zuge dann auch mal beantworten so, wie wie ist dein deine Beziehung, dein Erstkontakt zu Technologie gewesen? Und war dir klar, dass Du mal Journalistin für den Tech Bereich bist? Jein. Ich\n\nSpeaker 2: musste auch 'n bisschen schmunzeln, als Du son Poster Syndrom angesprochen hast im Intro, weil das ist also ist was, was ich total kenne. Ich glaub, ich hab das mittlerweile 'n bisschen abgelegt, aber ich hab mich ich hab mich ganz lange, glaub ich, nicht getraut, mich als Techy zu bezeichnen, ne. Weil ich war Journalistin und ich hab eine Journalismusausbildung gemacht und ich habe Amerikanistik und Kommunikation studiert. Also ich glaub, ich ich frag mich jetzt immer, warum ich nicht eigentlich schon Computer Science studiert hab, weil ich erinner mich schon, dass ich mit 11 oder 12 Mal 'n Buch in der Stadtbücherei ausgeliehen hab über Netzscape und das auch total cool fand dann, da irgendwie so HTML zu lernen. Und also ich hab mich immer für Technik interessiert.\n\nAber ich bin eine Quereinsteigerin und ich würde mich auch immer noch nicht als Programmiererin oder so bezeichnen, weil mir da, glaub ich, die Grundlagen oder ja, weil ich son bisschen das Gefühl hab, das Grundlagenwissen, also das studierte, das fehlt mir, obwohl ich natürlich jetzt viele Projekte in dem Bereich gemacht hab. Ich bin zur Technologie gekommen, glaub ich, also auch auch beruflich. Also das ist ja mein großes Glück jetzt, dass jetzt KI mein Expertengebiet sozusagen ist, was total Konjunktur hat. Aber ich bin da, weil ich eigentlich totaler Sci Fi Nerd bin und war. Und ich, also ich werd das öfter gefragt, was so der Moment ist, wo ich dann angefangen hab, mich für KI zu interessieren.\n\nUnd ich weiß 2 Momente noch. Das eine ist, dass ich Iron Man 1 gesehen hab, also den, ne, den Film über Tony Stark, der halt sonen coolen Personal AI Bot hat, Jarvis, der alles für ihn macht und einfach halt megahilfrei ist. Das fand ich cool. Das andere war 'n Reddit Post über eine Person, die gesagt hat, bei ihr in der Arbeit hat jemand aufgehört. Und die haben dann quasi geguckt, was hat die Person eigentlich den ganzen Tag gemacht?\n\nUnd haben dann einfach lauter so Skripte gefunden und quasi festgestellt, der Mensch hat überhaupt nicht gearbeitet, sondern einfach alles automatisiert. Und es war halt also ne Jahre vor den aktuellen Kaffee.\n\nSpeaker 0: Das war dieses Kaffeemaschinen. Der ist mir auch noch in Erinnerung geblieben. Das war das Kaffeemaschinenbeispiel, ne, wo er dann per Skript dann gesagt hat, so jetzt Kaffeemaschine Stopp. Und sobald er da ist von der Zeit, er hat seinen Weg gemessen vom Arbeitsplatz hin zur Kaffeemaschine und\n\nSpeaker 2: Genau das.\n\nSpeaker 0: Kaffeetasse. Der Genau das.\n\nSpeaker 2: Ich glaub, es gab dann auch, Du konntest ja doch teilweise die Skripte dann runterladen und so was. Und es war auch, ja, keine Ahnung. Wenn er spät in der Arbeit war, dann wurde automatisch eine Mail an Chef geschickt mit 'ner Krankmeldung. Es war einfach alles automatisiert. Und das fand ich einfach so nice, den Gedanken, also auch auch ohne zu wissen, dass ich da mal beruflich hingehen würde, aber ich dachte, egal was ich mach, ich möchte diese Person sein, die dann einfach bei der Arbeit sitzt und Youtube Videos guckt und und nicht wirklich arbeitet.\n\nUnd das ist nicht aufgegangen, weil ich jetzt, was auch 'n Glücksfall ist, aber weil ich jetzt extrem viel Arbeit hab und und auch immer immer wieder dann doch die Bereiche der Arbeit finde, die sich nicht so leicht automatisieren lassen. Aber da kommt, glaub ich, mein mein ursprüngliches Interesse her für Technologie.\n\nSpeaker 1: Ja, jetzt als als Coder trotzdem die Frage, wenn Du sagst, Du würdest dich noch nicht als Programmierin bezeichnen, heißt aber, dass Du schon auch viel Kontakt damit hast und das auch in deinen Projekten viel machst und auch viel gut liest und schreibst und dich damit beschäftigst?\n\nSpeaker 2: Unterschiedlich. Also ich hatte bei Amazon schon teilweise ziemlich technische Berufe. Und da würd ich sagen, da hab ich auch einfach wirklich viel über die Technologie gelernt. Ich hab mein Imposter Syndrom dann irgendwann abgelegt, nachdem der Chat GPT Hype so groß wurde und dann ich einfach gemerkt hab, jeder auf LinkedIn hat irgendwelche KI Takes und die sind alle falsch. Und ich hatte halt ich hatte halt mich Jahre davor, bevor es quasi auf die Art trendy wurde, mit KI beschäftigt.\n\nIch hab auch schon meinen meine eigenen neuronalen Netzwerke trainiert und so, ne, also kleine Sachen gemacht. Bin jetzt nicht irgendwie eine versierte Machine Learning Engineer, aber ich hab schon auch mal Code geschrieben und auch mal programmierte Projekte gelauncht und eben bei Amazon viel als Produktmanagerin mit den Techies gemeinsam dran gearbeitet, wie wie technologische Produkte gut werden. Genau und das war, also ja, hätte früher halt mich nie getraut, mich als als Programmiererin zu bezeichnen, auch nicht als KI Expertin. Aber als dann irgendwie jeder Andreas von überall plötzlich auf LinkedIn einfach so dumme Takes gepostet hat, da hab ich gedacht, nee, Moment, auf LinkedIn einfach so dumme Takes gepostet hat, da hab ich gedacht, nee, Moment mal, ich versteh eigentlich schon wirklich viel mehr über auch die technologischen Grundlagen als diese Leute. Und das ist ja auch mit meiner Aufgabe als Journalistin, komplexe Sachen zu erklären.\n\nUnd dann hab ich eben angefangen, auch, ne, auch selber mehr dazu zu publizieren, mehr Postings zu machen, die schon auch quasi die Technologie erklären. Genau. Und dann hab ich einfach irgendwann mich getraut, mich auch als KI Expertin zu bezeichnen, ja. Und dann hab ich einfach irgendwann mich getraut, mich auch als KI Expertin zu bezeichnen, ja.\n\nSpeaker 0: Cool. Ja, ich mein, wir werden auch gleich noch mal drauf, Du hast ja auch schon gemeint zu dem Zeitpunkt, als dann ChatGPT groß wurde, als auf einmal jeder zu dem Thema gesprochen hat. Und Du hast dich ja schon weiter vor damit beschäftigt, wann so da der erste professionelle Kontakt damit war. Da können wir ja gleich noch drauf kommen, wenn wir jetzt noch mal den Werdegang son bisschen chronologisch durchgehen. Du hast ja auch schon gemeint, Du warst bei Amazon, vielleicht kannst Du uns erzählen, Du kannst grad irgendwie, warst bei deinem Studium so.\n\nWie war denn der, wenn wir jetzt mal sagen, also son bisschen aus unserer TechBrille ist ja so, Amazon war irgendwie der der der der typischere Techy Job, den wir alle so kennen. Es gibt einen aus meiner Sicht erst mal davor und danach. Kannst Du uns das davor mal erklären und sagen, wie Du biedern dieser, also in meinem Kopf ist das son Switch an so. Der Rest klingt irgendwie relativ stringenzos, alles so journalistischen Bereich. Und auf einmal wechselt's auf die Tech, auf den Tech Bereich.\n\nAlso fangen wir ja mal an damit so, was zwischen Studium und Amazon so, was war da und wie kamst Du dann zu Amazon? Ist das, wie es von außen wirkt, wirklich so ein ein Switch gewesen?\n\nSpeaker 2: Ja. Ja, tatsächlich ist es total lustig eigentlich. Da haben mich auch viele Leute aus meinem Umfeld immer immer wieder drauf angesprochen, was das soll oder was das sollte. Ich wusste nicht, dass ich so sehr ins Technische gehen will. Wie gesagt, ich hab mich als Teenie für Journalismus interessiert und hab dann die Journalismusausbildung gemacht an der Journalistenschule in München.\n\nUnd da war's dann schon 'n bisschen so, dass ich die Techi Projekte übernommen habe. Also wir hatten son Abschlussprojekt mit 'nem Magazin und das Magazin hatte auch eine Webseite. Und da war's für mich total klar, dass ich mich halt dann für den Onlineteil mehr interessiere als für den Printteil. Und wenn wir Datenjournalismuskurse hatten, alles, was halt so in diese technischere Richtung ging, das hab ich einfach gemerkt, das liegt mir total und das interessiert mich auch mehr als die anderen in der Klasse. Und dann ging's darum, dass ich einen Job suchen musste und mir überlegt hab, okay, jetzt werd ich quasi auf den Arbeitsmarkt geworfen, was mach ich?\n\nWas macht mir Spaß? Was kann ich? Und das war tatsächlich 1 1 meiner ersten Projekte, die ich selber gecoodet hab, dass ich mir 'n Chatbot gemacht hab damals in Facebook Messenger. Wobei ich glaub, dass der eigentlich auf auf mehreren Plattformen funktioniert hat. Aber es ging darum, der Plattform so der, aber es ging darum, der Chatbot sollte meinen Lebenslauf erzählen.\n\nAlso ich wollte das dann halt Recruiter oder meine zukünftigen Chefinnen, dass die dann da fragen können, ah, wo hat Marie Kirk denn 'n Praktikum gemacht? Oder was kann die denn für für Tools? Wie gut ist sie denn in Microsoft Word oder so? Und da, das war 'n Projekt, das war halt so das, was, glaub ich, viele auch von euren Zuhörenden kennen, einfach son typisches Learning by doing Projekt. Hab halt Blogartikel gefunden und irgendwelche Repos, die Leute geteilt haben, wo sie ähnliche Projekte gemacht haben und dann hab ich das halt nachgebastelt.\n\nGenau, und dann bin ich zuerst ganz normal in diese typischen Journalismuspraktika gegangen, hab bei der Süddeutschen 'n Praktikum gemacht, das ich, glaub ich, auch durch diesen Chatbot unter anderem bekommen hab. Hab bei der taz 'n Praktikum gemacht und dann auch verlängert danach und noch Elternzeitvertretung und quasi son bisschen bisschen fixer bei der taz gearbeitet. Und in der Zeit hat aber mein damaliger Freund eine Ausschreibung online gefunden für Amazon, nämlich dass Alexa nach Deutschland kommt. Und die suchen jemand, der die deutsche Personality macht und die Witze schreibt und und auch Nachrichten schreibt für, also quasi Content macht für Alexa. Und da hab ich halt gemerkt, okay, das würde mich mega interessieren und das passt total zu dem, weil das halt quasi so das Nachrichten- und Journalismus- und Contentzeug verbindet, was ich gemacht habe, aber halt 'n geiler Chatbot ist.\n\nUnd also das war damals für mich auch so total verbunden mit dieser Jarvis Vision. Ich glaub, der ursprüngliche Gedanke von von Alexa, von Jeff Bezos ist, glaub ich, Star Trek inspiriert. Er soll so der Star Trek Bordcomputer, aber ich war so, Natürlich will ich da mitarbeiten, wenn wir dann halt son Ding kriegen, was dann in der Wohnung ist. Und dann kann ich halt in den Raum reinkommen und sagen, Computer, mach mir Kaffee. Und da hab ich mich dann beworben und und schon eine Weile drüber nachgedacht, ob das quasi für meine Journalismuskarriere eher schlecht ist, ob ich danach noch mal die Chance hab, in den Journalismus zurückzukommen, wenn ich quasi auf die böse Seite gehe und Und also und auch damals hat man schon viel drüber gehört, was Amazon auch falsch macht.\n\nAlso da ging's dann noch eher drum, das Sterben der Buchläden und so und ob die da fair agieren. Aber in den Bewerbungsgesprächen, also das Team, für das ich mich da beworben hab, der Chef, mit dem ich da gesprochen hab, das hat mich damals total überzeugt und ich hatte einfach Bock, da mitzuarbeiten und hab hab auch gedacht, das riskier ich jetzt auch, dass ich quasi von der eher linken taz in den Hyperkapitalismus mal wechsle und dann nicht weiß, ob ich da quasi in in diese Ecke des Journalismus noch mal noch mal zurückgelassen werde. Ja, aber also ja, vielleicht sprechen wir noch mehr über Amazon. Ich sag immer, alles, was man hört über das Unternehmen, ist wahr. Es war aber auch eine sehr gute Zeit für mich an an vielen Stellen.\n\nUnd ich ich bereu's auf keinen Fall, alles, was ich da gemacht hab, was ich da gelernt hab. Ich war über 4 Jahre da und und zuletzt auch in Seattle am Hauptsitz quasi, war für meine Karriere auf jeden Fall super und und auch für mein technisches Verständnis von Dingen.\n\nSpeaker 0: Und vielleicht, bevor wir gleich noch mal auf Amazon zu sprechen kommen, weil definitiv können wir da gern noch mehr drüber reden, auch wieder in der Wechsel zu der eher product Rolle, wo Du ja vorher dann eher, wenn ich verstanden hab, eher inhaltlich unterwegs warst, ne eher am Texten warst. Du hast ja von der taz gesprochen. Du hast ja unter anderem auch die erste KI Kolumne für die taz kreiert. Und da hab ich mich nur gefragt, vielleicht kannst Du uns einerseits als taz noch mal kurz erzählen? Und war das dann die Zeit vor Amazon, wo Du das kreiert hast?\n\nAlso war das dann sozusagen auch dein Erstkontakt so mit KI beruflich?\n\nSpeaker 2: Nee, also diese die taz Kolumne, das war tatsächlich kurz bevor Chat GPT gelauncht wurde, also das war dann viele Jahre später. Ich erinner mich aber grade dran, ich hab bei der auch schon technische Projekte gemacht. Also ich bin da nie ganz weggekommen von. Ich hab da auch, das war damals in feministischer Twitter Bot zum Weltfrauentag. Das war eigentlich mein erstes großes Programmierprojekt, wo es wirklich auch was ging und wo ich noch weiß, wie ich danach nachts saß und irgend einen Strichpunkt im Javascript nicht gefunden hab und einfach dachte so, fuck, das Ding soll morgen online gehen und ich ich weiß überhaupt nicht, was ich tue, hatt ich massiv im Poster Syndrom, weil ich mir halt irgendwie Javascript so zusammen hab und das also, ne, ich wie gesagt, ich glaub, so lernen viele.\n\nAber damals gab's noch keine keine Chatbots, die ich einfach fragen konnte, sondern ich halt Ja, also haben\n\nSpeaker 0: viele gelernt, ob's heute\n\nSpeaker 2: noch viele\n\nSpeaker 0: so lernen, die fragen.\n\nSpeaker 2: Ja, ja, heute ist ganz anders. Nee, aber da hab ich halt, keine Ahnung, die Stack Overflow und was auch immer durchforstet, nach was zur Hölle ist der Fehler, ob irgendjemand das vielleicht zufällig schon mal gelöst hat. Und es ging darum, wir wollten Twitter nach frauenfeindlichen Tweets, Kommentaren durchsuchen und dann quasi, dass der Bot automatisch darauf antwortet. Also wenn dann irgendjemand Schlampe sagt, dass dann halt son Gift kommt, wie er eine Watschen kriegt oder so irgend. Also son ganz kleines Projekt.\n\nIch hab's dann hingekriegt und hab irgendwie den Code zum Laufen gebracht tatsächlich in der in der letzten Nacht vorm Launch. Und dann ging der online 9 Uhr morgens am Weltfrauentag und 9 Uhr 30 war er gesperrt von Twitter.\n\nSpeaker 1: Aber das war die Judith Botlo, oder? Das\n\nSpeaker 2: ist Genau. Ja. Judith Botlo, das ist find ich son geiler Name, auf den ist 'n Kollege von mir gekommen.\n\nSpeaker 1: Ja. Die hat aber die hat am Ende auch Posts selber. Also der Bot hat selber auch Posts erstellt.\n\nSpeaker 2: Ja, genau. Das war dann unser Plan b, weil also das Antworten Ja. Quasi das Durchsuchen nach frauenfeindlichen Kommentaren, das das das wusste ich schon, dass es quasi eine Grauzone ist\n\nSpeaker 0: in den nach\n\nSpeaker 2: den Tour der Richtlinien. Also Du darfst eigentlich nicht ungefragt automatisiert Leute zuspammen. Eigentlich logisch.\n\nSpeaker 0: Okay.\n\nSpeaker 2: Und also wir haben den Bot ja nicht getagt, sondern wir haben ja nur eine Stichwortsuche gemacht.\n\nSpeaker 0: Mhm.\n\nSpeaker 2: Und nachdem er dann gesperrt wurde, haben wir dann halt überlegt, okay, wie können wir den wieder online nehmen? Was ist 'n Plan b, was der machen kann und das. Also es war dann, ja, also auch aus heutiger Sicht auch langweilig. Der hat halt dann irgendwelche feministischen Artikel oder Artikel zum Thema geteilt und ja, und halt nur Leuten geantwortet, die die den Bot getagged haben. Aber also es war für mich auf jeden Fall 'n cooles Projekt, wo ich halt auch gelernt hab und ja.\n\nUnd halt auch mal einfach so diese Erfahrung gemacht hab, dass man in der Nacht Mate Tee trinkt und einfach denkt, das klappt nicht. Und dann kriegt man's aber hin und der Code funktioniert am Ende und man kann's online nehmen. Und alles, was danach schiefgegangen ist, war ja nicht mein Code, sondern das waren die Twitterrichtlinien. Und dann, das war eigentlich von der Story her auch gar nicht so schlecht, weil dann haben wir auch darüber berichtet und halt dann die Metastory erzählt, wie doof das eigentlich ist, was Twitter alles zulässt. Also dass Du halt einfach Leute frauenfeindlich beleidigen darfst den ganzen Tag und wirst nicht gesperrt.\n\nAber wenn halt 'n 'n Bot das kritisiert, der wird dann gesperrt Und das kriegen sie dann plötzlich hin, dass sie das bemerkten. Und also ja, diese Diskussion zu führen, hat das total gereicht.\n\nSpeaker 1: Ich mein, ich weiß, was Du meinst, wenn Du sagst, aus heutiger Sicht klingt das langweilig, aber damals war, also find ich das schon spannend. Ich mein, mit den Möglichkeiten heute wirkt das irgendwie so einfach, son Bot zu erstellen, aber 2017 waren die Möglichkeiten ja noch ganz anders. Also ich find das schon 'n spannendes technisches Projekt.\n\nSpeaker 2: Ja. Und ich fand's total total cool, dass die taz das mitgemacht hat, weil die sind ja auch in Risiko eingegangen damit. Und das ist auch der Grund meiner Erfahrung damals, dass ich dann viele Jahre später gesagt hab, okay, wir wollen eine quasi nichtmenschliche Kolumnist*in in eine deutsche Printzeitung bringen, also auch 'n für damals total gewagtes Projekt, zu sagen, wir schreiben komplett automatisiert, wir trauen uns auch in diese Diskussionen rein. Also werden da Arbeitsplätze gefährdet? Wie wie riskant ist das, also dass das wirklich eine Maschine da schreibt und und nicht 'n Mensch diesen Kolumnen Platz kriegt.\n\nUnd da wusste ich, also die taz wird sich das trauen oder hab ich hab ich gehofft. Und von von anderen deutschen Printzeitungen hab ich dann teilweise gar nicht gefragt, weil ich schon wusste, das ist denen denen zu riskant. Und die taz traut sich immer immer wieder in so, ja, in so die Mitte der Debatte irgendwie auch rein. Und die machen auch Sachen, wo dann die halbe Redaktion eben nicht dahintersteht und wo sie dann auch in Redaktionssitzungen sich total zerfetzen darüber. Aber darum geht's halt, die Vielfalt der der Meinungen so.\n\nSpeaker 0: Aber lasst doch gerne noch mal kurz dann da auf die Kolumne eingehen, wenn wir's dann dann noch mal ansprechen. Also wenn ich's noch mal in in Kontext setze, also wenn Du wenn wir über Judith Botler grade gesprochen haben, das war die taz Zeit vor Amazon. Die Kolumne war dann, geh ich mal davon aus, das ist ja vorhin schon gemeint, nach Amazon, also kurz bevor ChatGPT. Vielleicht kannst Du einfach noch mal kurz dazu erzählen, wie das funktioniert hat, weil das war ja damals jetzt nicht so, dass ihr die Open AI API einfach angegangen seid, wahrscheinlich gesagt habt, hier verfass mal 'n Text so. Wie hat denn wie wie hat das funktioniert, diese KI Kolumne und wie wie wie kamst Du drauf?\n\nSpeaker 2: Ich kam drauf, weil ich tatsächlich mit OpenAis, GPT 3, muss das gewesen sein, rumgespielt hab. 2021, glaub ich, oder 2020 hat das angefangen, 2020 2021. Ich weiß nicht, ob ihr das damals auch mitbekommen habt, aber halt in so bestimmten Kreisen wusste man halt, es gibt jetzt dann, ich hatte sogar mit GPT-zwei Punkt 5 oder so was angefangen. Ich bin mir nicht mehr ganz sicher, aber quasi so sehr primitive Versionen von Textvervollständigung. Und die hatten da damals schon eine API, glaub ich, oder zumindest hatten sie einen Playground, wo man kein Chat Interface hatte, aber wo man halt einfach Texte reinschreiben konnte, die wurden dann vervollständigt.\n\nUnd die war natürlich total schlecht, aber dadurch eigentlich künstlerisch interessant. Und es war schon damals so, ich erinner mich, da war ich nämlich grade in Seattle, also muss es während der Pandemie auch gewesen sein, während meiner Amazon Zeit in Seattle, dass die da halt irgendwie eine neue Version dann rausgebracht haben, vielleicht da dann das Da Vinci Modell oder keine Ahnung, was genau es war. Und ich dann halt gemerkt hab so, oh krass, das ist so viel besser als alles, was ich halt damals mit meinen ersten neuronalen Netzwerken gemacht hab. Und der also der der bringt plötzlich ja komplette Sätze raus. Also es ist nicht Kauderwelsch, sondern das ist eine Maschine, die erstellt Text.\n\nUnd die kann auch 300, 400 Zeichen Text erstellen, der vielleicht nicht komplett kohärent ist, aber der zumindest nicht voller Fehler ist. Und das war dann so die Zeit, da bin ich dann auf 'n paar Freunde von mir zugegangen, mit denen wir die gegründet haben damals, von denen ich einfach wusste, die interessieren sich auch so in diesem Bereich für einfach für so künstlerische Techprojekte. Und denen hab ich dann gesagt, hey, ich glaub, die Zeit ist reif. Ich glaub, wir müssen jetzt eigentlich mal gucken, kriegen wir das irgendwie in eine Zeitung? Und wir fanden den Gedanken halt total lustig, dass auch die erste nichtmenschliche Entität quasi eine einen Text veröffentlicht, bevor die Printzeitung gestorben ist.\n\nAlso so auch auch so als Sci Fi Szenario.\n\nSpeaker 0: Mhm. Genau, und\n\nSpeaker 2: dann hab ich einfach da da quasi angefangen, Texte zu generieren. Das war alles Open in als a irgend, da gibt's son Freaky Projekt von Elon Musk und anderen Leuten. Ja. Und wir noch keine Ahnung hatten, dass die dann sich so drehen und nicht nicht wirklich sein wollen und nicht wirklich das Wohl der Menschheit sich so sehr interessieren. Aber die Texte waren dann total faszinierend, weil ich hab dann halt irgendwie versucht, so zu prompten, also quasi den Text anfangen immer zu schreiben, Du bist eine Kolumnistin in 1 Printzeitung.\n\nDu schreibst dadrüber, wie's halt ist, eine KI zu sein und zu schreiben. Und dann mussten wir auch immer noch den Text anfangen mit, ich glaub, der Prompt ging immer bis liebe Leserinnen und Leser, es damals die Art zu prompt war. Du hattest ja nicht dieses Post Training, dass Du so sehr auf auf trainierst, sondern Du musstest quasi einen Textanfang schreiben, der plausibel ist und die Maschine konnte die dann fortführen. Und danach hat die dann plötzlich so geile Sachen rausgehauen und teilweise halt komplett, weil's auch noch nicht so gefiltert war damals. Also da war noch viel mehr einfach halt auch so Internetraage drin.\n\nUnd da hat die ja plötzlich Kolumnen rausgehauen, über wie scheiße der Herbst ist und einfach halt dann noch so Ausrufezeichen 1 1 1 und und die ganzen scheiß Menschen mit ihren blöden Fahrrädern und rutschen aufm feuchten Laub aus und was seid ihr eigentlich, was seid ihr eigentlich für biologische Opfer? Ich weiß jetzt nicht mehr, die genauen Zitate. Aber es waren megareninteressante Texte damals. Und das ist eigentlich dann was, was wir dann total schade fanden, weil wir die Entwicklung mitgemacht haben, als also kurz nachdem wir den ersten Text gelauncht haben, kam dann halt Chat GPT raus und dann ging sie in den nächsten Monaten sehr, sehr schnell, dass sie die Modelle auch verbessert haben und viel besser gefiltert haben und das alles kommerziell verträglicher gemacht haben. Und dann wurde es für uns über Zeit immer schwieriger, da interessante Texte rauszubringen, weil halt die KIs immer freundlicher und normaler und und langweiliger wurden, ja.\n\nAber ganz am Anfang, da gab's noch einen Moment, auch son paar Wochen vorm Launch, eine, gibt's das in jedem Programmierprojekt, müsst ihr mir eigentlich sagen, dass man dann denkt so, fuck, was haben wir gemacht? Es ist wird alles scheitern. Wir haben irgendwann 'n paar Wochen vor Launch dann mal gefragt, Moment mal, wie lang soll diese Kolumne eigentlich werden? Und dann hat die taz gesagt, ja, auf der Seite ist Platz für 3000 Zeichen, also die müsst ihr schon voll machen. Und dann haben wir gemerkt so, oh, Kacke, die ganzen Demotexte, die wir generieren, die sind halt 300 Zeichen lang oder 400.\n\nUnd danach bricht's halt total schnell zusammen. Und dann mussten wir schon in in dem Sinne 'n bisschen was drum rumbasteln. Wir wollten, dass kein Mensch den Text wirklich anfasst. Also wir haben schon gesagt, wir werden mehrere Texte generieren und den besten auswählen, aber wir wollten, dass es wirklich 'n echter KI Text ist, nicht diese wie diese ganzen, wir haben 'ner Maschine alle Harry Potter Bände zum Lesen gegeben und das generiert sie, die damals rumging, wo man dann einfach so krass gemerkt hat, da hat einfach 'n Mensch wirklich so jeden Satz kuratiert und die lustigsten Sachen ausgewählt und so. Und deswegen haben wir da quasi 'n Robert in unserem Team, der der das gut konnte, der hat da quasi sone kleine Reprompt Maschine gebaut.\n\nAlso dass wir quasi dann immer das Ende von dem, was bisher generiert wurden, automatisch wieder oben reingeben und die Maschine so dazu bringen, halt immer wieder die nächsten 300 Zeichen Text zu zu generieren, obwohl halt das Kontextfenster noch total klein war. Ah ja. Und so hatten wir da quasi son System drum rum, die die Open AI API. Ja.\n\nSpeaker 0: Ja, cool. Ja, also für deine Frage mit kurz davor son Skala, kannst Du so beantworten. Ich glaub, der Unterschied bei uns ist, wir wissen, dass die erste Version Murks ist, aber wir haben ja auch Zeit, einfach durch Updates das Ganze zu verändern. Und die erste Version wird irgendwann keiner mehr sehen im Vergleich zu 'ner Kolumne, wo halt jeder Beitrag erst mal da ist für alle Ewigkeiten. Also der erste Wurf muss vielleicht besser sein.\n\nIch glaub, deswegen haben wir dieses, wir wissen einfach, der erste Wurf ist nicht gut. Ja. Wir haben Zeit, das zu verbessern.\n\nSpeaker 2: Vielleicht ist das das, was halt an so Projekte von so quasi einfach Scharlatan wie uns auszeichnen, die wir halt dann nicht professionell coden, sondern halt nur für für Fun Projekte. Dass wir halt diese Erfahrung nicht haben und nicht wissen, ah okay, wir müssen echt 'n paar Wochen früher anfangen und uns Zeit nehmen für eine Version 0, die dann kacke sein darf. Sondern dass wir einfach son bisschen dachten, so ja, läuft und und dann 'n paar Wochen vorm vorm Launch merken, hoppla, jetzt wird die Zeit knapp.\n\nSpeaker 0: Oder wir sind 'n bisschen frecher, weil wir geben Version 0 ja auch Leuten in die Hand. Ist ja nicht so, dass wir das im Geheimen tun. Wir wir wir exerzieren am lebenden Objekt so. Aber wir können's halt einfach irgendwann wieder runter dem sagen, hier ist was Besseres, so vergiss, was Du vorher gesehen hast.\n\nSpeaker 2: Ja. Hab ich grad,\n\nSpeaker 1: das ist 'n sehr normaler Prozess in der Software. Und ich, also ihr habt ja dann am Ende scheinbar auch 'n gutes Ergebnis gehabt zum Launch, oder? Also warst Du dann zufrieden, als es losging?\n\nSpeaker 2: Ja, ja, doch, das hat dann schon geklappt. Es war, ja.\n\nSpeaker 1: Findet man die Kolumnen denn noch online? Weil ich glaube, Du hast nicht nur mir, sondern sehr vielen Leuten das gemacht, das mal zu lesen, was so damals da rauskam.\n\nSpeaker 2: Ja, man findet die alle online. Ich kann euch den Link schicken, könnt ihr den in den Shownotes verlinken. Genau und wir haben auch alles andere drumherum öffentlich gemacht. Also wir haben auch, ich glaub, unser Reaper müsste auch noch online sein, also unser ganzer Code. Wir haben teilweise, glaub ich, auch nicht alle, aber wir haben, glaub ich, auch offengelegt, wie viele Texte wir jeweils generiert haben für die jeweilige Ausgabe, aus wie vielen Texten wir den ausgewählt haben.\n\nGenau. Also wir wollten, das darum ging's auch bei dem Projekt. Wir wollten einfach eine Konversation darüber anstoßen. Und wir wollten das halt auch nont tech gies die Möglichkeit haben, dann zu verstehen, Moment mal, was passiert da? Und was heißt das, wenn eine KI in Anführungszeichen halt in der in der Zeitung schreibt?\n\nUnd dass die eben, das wird ja zwar eine Persönlichkeit geben und es will eine Story darüber erzählen, wer diese Persona ist, Aber dass man halt auch versteht, dass das nicht wirklich was ist, was Gefühle hat und so, sondern dass es halt, was ist, woran Menschen arbeiten und Menschen dann diese diese Story darum stricken. Und deswegen haben wir ziemlich viel online gestellt dann auch in Hintergrundartikeln auf quasi verschiedenen Leveln, damit die die es halt wirklich zum ersten Mal sehen, weil sie eine Printzeitung in der Hand haben, damit die dann nicht abgeschreckt sind von zu viel technischem Jargon. Aber halt, dass die Leute, die sich technisch dann dafür interessieren, dass die dann auch möglichst möglichst tief ins Rabbit Hall reingehen können und sehen können, wie wir's gemacht haben. Ja, könnt ihr gerne verlinken.\n\nSpeaker 0: Cool. Vielleicht lass uns gerne jetzt noch mal auf die Zeit von Amthor zu gehen. Wir haben ja jetzt ja grade was davor und danach. Also 2017 waren wir noch an den Abenden, wo Du nach 'nem Semikolon gesucht hast, was in deinem JavaScript fehlt, hin zu 2021 kurz vor ChatGPT. Also Du meintest ja, ich hab dann auch schon mal neuronale Netzwerke trainiert gehabt in der Zeit.\n\nDas heißt, es gab ja eine Entwicklung von Semikolon hinzu, Du beschäftigst dich mit neuronalen Netzwerken Und das ist ja genau diese Zeit hin zu dann dieser Kolumne, wo eigentlich Amazon lag, also genau 2017 bei der taz, bist dann ein, mit 22 bei Amazon. Kannst Du uns noch mal 'n bisschen was zu der Story erzählen, wie Du dann von dem, Du gehst zu Amazon und bist dafür eingestiegen, Texte für Alexa, Content für Alexa zu generieren, hin zu, Du bist Productmanager und dann ja eher eine technische Rolle bei Amazon so. Also wie wie war diese Zeit da? Und wo kam dann auch dieser Punkt, dass Du dich mit neuronalen Netzwerken beschäftigt hast, was ja auch wenn ich's richtig verstehe, irgendwie in der Zeit passiert sein.\n\nSpeaker 2: Ja, ja, voll gerne. Das mit den neuronalen Netzwerken war tatsächlich noch vorher, glaub ich, das war in meinem Praktikum bei der Süddeutschen, da hatt ich einen Kollegen. Also der hat auch eine total große Rolle in in meinem Werdegang und in meinem Interesse für KI. Hallo Felix, falls Du das hörst. Weil mit dem hab ich dann da drüber gesprochen, was wir damals an Blogartikeln gesehen haben aus den USA, dass Leute eben neuronale Netzwerke auch mit Text trainieren.\n\nIch erinner mich an einen Blogartikel von Andre Capati, 2016, 17 muss das gewesen sein. Der war ja später bei OpenAI und ist jetzt frei, glaub ich, aber halt eine totale Koryphäe mittlerweile und damals, keine Ahnung. Ja. Was halt einfach irgend einen André, der aber halt 'n sehr geilen Blogartikel gemacht hat, weil der halt für jemand wie mich zugänglich war und ich einfach so Schritt für Schritt nachvollziehen konnte, was genau hat er da trainiert. Und er hat halt Ich\n\nSpeaker 0: werd ja, glaub ich, ja noch eine Youtube Reihe draus gemacht, ne?\n\nSpeaker 2: Ja, genau. Also ich liebe immer noch alles, was der macht. Ja. Er ist total guter Erklärer auch. Und damals ging's aber dadrum, dass der halt irgendwie KI mit Text gemacht hat.\n\nUnd das war für mich interessant als Journalistin, weil ich halt irgendwie dachte so, wir erinnern uns, ich wollte ja der Mensch sein, der eigentlich nicht arbeitet, sondern Youtube Videos bei der Arbeit guckt. Ja. Das heißt, es war für mich irgendwie so klar, ich muss Maschinen dazu bringen, dass schreiben können, weil schreiben ist ja das, wofür ich bezahlt werde. Und dann hat dieser Kollege Felix mir eben geholfen, da auf seinem alten MacBook das irgendwie aufzusetzen, dass wir halt son Torch RNA trainieren. Und ich hab die Gutenberg Bibel da reingefüttert, weil ich damals noch nicht wusste, dass man einfach scrapen darf und klauen darf und die Runden, die man schlagen muss und und damit wegkamen.\n\nIch hab auch dann Leute bei der ob ich deren Texte haben darf und ob ich eine Maschine trainieren darf, um's so zu schreiben wie Du Star Reporter Seite 3. Die haben alle nein gesagt, die fanden das gar nicht\n\nSpeaker 1: cool. Oh.\n\nSpeaker 2: Genau, aber das waren so meine ersten Experimente. Also da hab ich dann mit der mit der Gutenberg Bibel trainiert quasi und und das ist das Mac, der das MacBook lief eine Nacht lang heiß und am nächsten Tag kam ich zurück und der konnte son bisschen Bibelverse ausspucken. Also das war das das war das Erste, wo ich quasi auch auch Jahre bevor dem bevor dem taz Projekt mit der Kolumne quasi wusste, okay, irgendwie bringt man Maschinen dahin, Texte zu schreiben. Meine Einschätzung damals wär trotzdem gewesen, nie und nimmer kommen wir an den Punkt, wo eine Maschine einen kohärenten Absatz schreibt. Also das war so wild, der hat dann irgendwelche, also er hat zwar gecheckt, dass 'n Bibelvers irgendwie mit 'ner Zahlenkombination beginnt und dass da ganz viele Stämme und Söhne drin vorkommen.\n\nAber ansonsten war das kein gutes Deutsch und das waren waren keine kohärenten Sätze und und aber auch, was ich gesehen hab im Internet, was alle anderen machen, war halt einfach wildes Zeug, war irgendwie eine Form von von Textanalyse, die man da bekommen hat und sone quasi son ironisches Verzerrren von was einen Text ausmacht. Ich hab dann, glaub ich, auch irgendwie so, wenn Angela Merkel und Haftbefehl 'n Kind hätten, wie würde das sprechen? Und sone Art von sone Art von Projekte hab ich damals oder von, Projekt kann man's nicht nennen, von Experimenten hab ich damals gemacht. Aber da war ich, also ich hab dann auch überhaupt nicht gecheckt, warum die ganzen so Starjournalisten dann sagen, nee, mach das nicht und benutz nicht meine Texte. Aber ich war so, wovor hast Du Angst, als ob jemals?\n\nDu siehst ja\n\nSpeaker 0: Was jemals passiert?\n\nSpeaker 2: Du siehst ja, wie er die Bibel hier verunstaltet, als ob er jemals so schreiben kann, wie Du Das sieht jetzt so\n\nSpeaker 0: Das hättest Du mir was, zeitlich einordnen. Es war so 2 17, also 9 Jahre später und deine Kollegen hatten recht, dir keine Texte zu geben.\n\nSpeaker 2: Jo, absolut. Also ich hab echt, ja, hab hab mich da wirklich getäuscht. Genau. Das war die Zeit quasi.\n\nSpeaker 1: Opa, 9 Jahre ist ja auch einfach verdammt lang. Also\n\nSpeaker 2: Ja, aber andererseits wird das denn, ne? Ja. Aber andererseits, also genau, das war 2017 dann, dann wenn man überlegt, dass ich dann GPT-drei irgendwas angeguckt hab und gedacht hab, ah, Moment mal, das ist auch viel besser, als ich jemals gedacht hätte, dass es wird. Das war dann 3 Jahre später. Und noch mal 'n Jahr später kam Chat GPT raus.\n\nMhm. Oder 2 Jahre, ein ein, 2 Jahre später kam Chat GPT raus. Und seitdem, also ne, wir haben ja auch, also klar, wir sehen, wie's immer besser wird, aber das mit den Texten, das das ging dann schon schnell. Also das war, ich hab mich, ist eine meiner vielen Fehlprognosen im Kaiserreich in den letzten Jahren.\n\nSpeaker 0: Dann spielt ja manchmal vielleicht auch noch 'n paar Prognosen. Mal gucken, ob die zutat\n\nSpeaker 2: Gerne, gerne, kann Jetzt ist egal, jetzt kann ich einfach raushauen. Ich hab hab schon sone schlechte Track Record. Ich kann die gar nicht kann die gar nicht ruinieren.\n\nSpeaker 0: Aber jetzt passiert ja auch so viel durch Zufall kann man auch irgendwie recht haben, ist auch ganz gut an Prognosen jetzt im Air ispace so. Das ist, viele wilde Themen kann man aufstellen. Die Wahrscheinlichkeit ist auch hoch, dass es\n\nSpeaker 2: vielleicht zutrifft. Genau, ist dann Marketingsache, ob man dann irgendwie schafft, dass die Leute dann an die sich erinnern, wo\n\nSpeaker 0: man recht hatte oder nicht.\n\nSpeaker 2: Genau. Ja, ja, und Du hast nur nach Amazon\n\nSpeaker 0: gefragt. Genau.\n\nSpeaker 2: Ich bin bei Amazon eingestiegen als Content Editor. Und das ist aber eine Sache, die ich bei Amazon ziemlich cool finde. Das ist eine Firma, die gibt Leuten, also zumindest in in meinem Bereich, sehr schnell viel Verantwortung. Und Du darfst dich für alles interessieren auch und Du darfst auch total quer durch das Unternehmen steigen, wenn Du wenn Du gute Arbeit machst und wenn Du quasi vermittelst, dass es dich interessiert und dass Du das kannst. Und ich hab natürlich auch bei Amazon dann immer geguckt, was ich automatisieren kann.\n\nUnd das war 'n Umfeld, das das total ermutigt hat. Also ich hab dann auch halt einfach direkt geguckt, wir hatten irgendwelche nervigen Content Management Systeme, die halt hässliche Oberflächen hatten und einfach viel zu viele Klicks von uns Content Editors gefordert haben. Und die hab ich dann halt mit irgendwelchen Excel VBA Skripten halt automatisiert, dass ich dass ich einfach meinen Content in Excel schreiben konnte und dann mit einem Klick diesen Kram hochladen konnte und nicht mit diesem CMS dealen musste. Und da hatt ich halt total Spaß dran an solchen Projekten. Und das ist natürlich was, was Amazon supergerne gesehen hat, weil das ist halt, das die Firma funktioniert total in Optimierung und in Effizienz und in Zahlen.\n\nUnd dieses Dings, dieses das kleine Skript, was ich da gebaut hab, haben die halt dann weltweit ausgerollt für alle Content Editors. Und dann konntest Du halt rechnen, wie viele Hunderte Stunden pro Tag das dann spart und dass wir halt, weil wir halt, keine Ahnung, 90 Prozent schneller sind, weil wir halt einfach uns 'n paar Klicks sparen. Aber es, überall sone große Firma skaliert das total. Und genau und solche Sachen sind das, die ich gemacht hab und deswegen wurd ich halt dann immer wieder befördert. Und dann genau, war ich nach 'ner Zeit, ist gar nicht, Programm Manager für Content und hab dann quasi nicht nicht mehr einfach selber geschrieben, sondern halt mit mit gemanagt, dass andere Leute schreiben oder dass wir Content kaufen und dass der Content, den den man in Alexa so haben will, dass der gut funktioniert und dass es 'n gutes Produkt ist.\n\nUnd irgendwann hab ich mich halt dann nach Seattle beworben. Weil auch weil auch Amazon das ermutigt, dass man eigentlich nur 'n halbes Jahr, maximal ein Jahr in derselben Rolle ist. Ich glaub auch aus 'ner, also die zynische Sichtweise wär, wenn Du die Rolle zu lange machst, dann ist ja auch langweilig, strengst Du dich auch nicht mehr an, weil Du nicht mehr neu bist. Dann bist Du vielleicht zu gut da drin und dann rufst Du dich vielleicht aus und dann bringst Du vielleicht nur 80 oder 90 Prozent deiner Leistung und nicht 120 Prozent wie wenn Du neu bist in 'nem Job. Das heißt, ich glaub, das hat schon auch 'n bisschen System, dass man immer entweder kurz vor der Beförderung ist und zeigen muss, was man was man richtig kann, damit man die Beförderung kriegt oder halt neu in 'ner Rolle und sich beweist.\n\nUnd dann dann ist man in der Rolle und versucht, das zu optimieren. Und wenn man's dann kann und alles optimiert hat, dann geht's weiter. Und das macht einerseits total Spaß, aber trennt natürlich auch Leute aus.\n\nSpeaker 1: Und das wirkt wie son Sprung von Senior Proger Manager zum Senior Product Manager. Das ist schon 'n ganz andere Aufgabenbereich dann gewesen für dich, oder? Und wie war, also wolltest Du diesen Sprung und wie war er dann für dich?\n\nSpeaker 2: Ja, ich wollte Product Manager werden, weil Product Manager mehr verdienen als Programm Manager, bei Amazon zumindest. Ja. Nicht, ob's überall so ist. Ich war, also ich war zuerst in 'nem Contentbereich und es war dann quasi Management und war cool. Und dann, was ich vor allem wollte, ist ins Ausland gehen.\n\nWeil ich mir dachte, wenn ich schon bei sonem internationalen Konzern arbeite und die helfen dir ja auch dann mit Relocation Packages und mit den Anwälten, die dein Visum organisieren und und all das, da hab ich gezielt geguckt, was gibt's denn für Jobs, die mich interessieren, die an anderen Standorten sind? Und ich bin nach Seattle gegangen als, ich glaub, Program Manager für Alexa Music. Also es war dann, hatte gar nichts mehr mit Content zu tun, sondern da ging's dann die alle Musikprodukte auf Alexa, also Spotify und Deezer und Apple Music und die sie alle heißen, alle Musikdienste, die Du verbinden kannst, Amazon Music natürlich. Und da ging's ja einfach darum, dass man dann ja, dass dass Salexial die Lieder spielt, die sie spielen soll. Was alle selber beurteilen können, ob wir das gut hinbekommen haben oder nicht.\n\nVor allem in den ganzen verschiedenen Sprachen. Und das war eine eine globale Rolle dann. Also da hab ich dann auch mit irgendwie 14 Ländern zusammengearbeitet und war megaspannend für mich, weil ich halt ich konnte halt auch bei der Bewerbung sagen, ich ich hab halt diesen internationalen Blick. Ich ich arbeite auch im Contentbereich quasi mit den anderen Ländern zusammen und weiß, warum halt 'n Produkt für Japan anders aussehen muss als 'n Produkt für Brasilien. Und hatte halt ja son bisschen diese diese technischen Erfolge im im Rucksack.\n\nAlso dass ich halt sagen könnte, guck mal, wie ich hier das den Contentbereich optimiert hab und ich ich kann halt einfach Prozesse und ich kann managen und und komplexe Abläufe vereinfachen, sodass die Leute damit gut arbeiten können. Genau und das war dann, da war ich immer noch Program Manager, glaub ich, und hab da ein Jahr in Seattle verbracht, was leider das Pandemiejahr war. Also ich war nicht so viel in diesen fancy Glas Spears, die es da gibt, sondern sondern in Seattle im Homeoffice hauptsächlich nach nach 3 Wochen, nachdem ich dahin gezogen bin. Und dann, als ich dann entschieden hab, ich geh jetzt dann zurück nach Deutschland und die Pandemie geht leider nicht so schnell vorbei, wie ich wie ich jeden Monat wieder gehofft hab, da war's halt dann einfach eine Product Manager Rolle, auf die ich mich beworben hab. Also auch tatsächlich in 'nem in 'nem Team, das ich gut kannte von damals, aber halt 'n Level drüber.\n\nUnd da hab ich mich halt dann als als Launch Managerin für für Deutschland beworben und den Job gekriegt. Und genau, und kurz vorher in Seattle wurde ich halt noch befördert zu Senior und dann von Senior Programm Manager zu Senior Product Manager. Das war dann einfach einfach noch mal eine Bewerbung. Das war okay.\n\nSpeaker 1: Und war's dann so, wie Du eben meintest, dass Du so neuer Bereich, fühlst dich erst mal wieder so, als müsstest Du 120 Prozent geben, weil alles irgendwie noch unbekannt ist und Du musstest irgendwie viel lernen? Oder war's dann auch schon für dich, weil Du irgendwie die Prozesse so gut kann, desto einfacher da einzusteigen als Productmanager?\n\nSpeaker 2: Das war immer so wellenförmig. Also ich glaub, der Switch zu Productmanager, der ist mir nicht so schwergefallen, weil also das ist auch 'n bisschen hab ich das Gefühl, 'n bisschen einfach nur eine Wording Sache. Bei Amazon gibt's halt diese Levels und das das ist dann definiert, also dass ich quasi dann diesen Senior Titel haben durfte. Das musst ich schon krass zeigen auch für die Beförderung. Da musst Du lange Dokumente schreiben, die halt dann zeigen, warum Du quasi auf 'nem Metalevel strategisch arbeitest und ne, welche Erfolge Du geschafft hast, was die für einen Impact haben, die quasi dann Level 6 sind und nicht Level 5 oder wie auch immer.\n\nUnd ich fand aber, auch als ich Programm Manager war, hab ich ja am Produkt gearbeitet. Also es ging ja trotzdem immer Launches. Es ging halt dann den Launch, dass die Spotify Software gut funktioniert in der neueren Version. Oder auch als ich Content gemacht hab, hab ich mitgeholfen, Alexa in neuen Ländern zu launchen. Da ging's halt darum, dass die in Brasilien gut funktioniert.\n\nUnd da hab ich ja natürlich auf 'nem mehr Juniorlevel zugearbeitet, aber es ging ging ja trotzdem immer ums Produkt. Deswegen, als ich dann Launch Managerin für Deutschland war, war's nicht son son krasser Schritt für mich, weil also auch 'n Produktlaunch ist ja irgendwie 'n Programm, weil Du hast ja trotzdem, Du hast ja Hardware und Software und verschiedenste Features und die neuen Features, die funktionieren müssen und die alten Features, die auf die auf das neue Framework funktionieren müssen. Das heißt, ich glaub, für mich war das gar nicht son krasser Unterschied, ob ich mich Produktmanagerin nenne oder Programmmanagerin nenne. Ich wusste eigentlich nur, ich will heißen, weil das halt mehr Geld bedeutet. So, ja.\n\nIch weiß nicht, was da eure Erfahrung ist oder ob das bei Amazon dann auch so anwendbar ist auf die anderen, was was man Produkt und was man Programm nennt.\n\nSpeaker 0: Ja, ich glaub dadurch, dass wir ja auch in 'ner Firma sind, sehr klein, wo's auch eher darum geht so, macht das, was für den Erfolg notwendig ist, ist bei uns das Titel und der Unterschied zwischen den Titeln macht bei uns nicht nicht so viel aus wegen. Ist bei uns auch immer 'n bisschen interessant, so wie diese Rollen dann ausgeübt werden bei Leuten, mit dem wir uns hier unterhalten. Ich fand aber 2 Sachen auch interessant, die Du über Amazon gesagt hast. Das eine war deine VBA Automatisierungsstory und das andere war dieses so, man bleibt 'n halbes Jahr bis 'nem Jahr in der Rolle. Weil ich eigentlich beide Dinge gesehen in 'ner anderen Industrie, aber hab 'n anderen Blick irgendwie darauf und hätte gedacht, bei Amazon läuft's anders.\n\nAlso ich hab war lange vorher in der Finanzbranche unterwegs bei großen Banken, auch im Investmentbanking, eher auf der technischen Seite. Und was ich auch gemacht hab, ist, bestimmte Prozesse einfach mit VBA Skripten automatisiert und irgendwie gefühlt Leuten von ihrem Job dann auch beraubt, die vorher alles irgendwie händisch gemacht haben, wo ich irgendwie dachte, also die eine Sache war, krass, so was geht bestimmt auch einfach nur, wo ich damals so überdachte in großen Corporates, die irgendwie im Finanzbereich sind, die irgendwie träge sind und oder irgendwie im Mittelstand, die mit Technologie irgendwie gar nichts zu tun haben. Und find's ja interessant, dass Du diese selbe Story von Amazon, einem Unternehmen, wo ich sagen würde, die sind ja Tech first und da sind so viele Techies, dass es da dieses Potenzial gibt, ich kann Dinge mit VBA machen und global ausrollen, dacht ich immer, ist eher verstaubten Enterprises vorbehalten.\n\nSpeaker 2: Lustig. Also Du denkst, wir hätten dann bei Amazon gar kein hässliches CMS gehabt, dass man überhaupt, sondern die hätten das dann nicht\n\nSpeaker 0: Ja oder dass da überhaupt das Potenzial dafür da ist, dass jemand mit, ich dachte immer, so was wird von Grund auf irgendwie automatisiert und irgendwie in so fisticated Technologie geschrieben, als dass jemand, der eigentlich Ja. Am Content arbeitet, vielleicht ein bisschen Interesse für Tech hat, son VBA in dem's gern ausrollen kann. Die hat gedacht, dass wir dann direkt erkennen, ah ja, okay, hier ist Potenzial, wir bauen das perfekte Tool dafür und nicht, wir nehmen das VBA Tool und rollen das dann dann alle aus und nehmen Find fand ich irgendwie interessant. Ich hätte gedacht, das ist irgendwie von vom Grundsatz her direkt technologischer gedacht, weil so in den Enterprises, die ich da vorgesehen hab, so, na ja, es gibt ganz lange Prozesse, vorher wird irgendwie immer alles händisch gemacht und Technologie kam irgendwann eher so on top obendrauf. Und Amazon war für mich 1 der Unternehmen so, ja, der ist halt direkt mit Technologie gedacht.\n\nDeswegen finde ich interessant, dass da diese Potenziale auch dafür da sind. Und sehr cool, dass Du das dann auch gemacht hast und die Chance ergreifst, aber auch Amazon dann sagt, ja, dann lass das nutzen, cool.\n\nSpeaker 2: Ja, stimmt, das ist lustig. Aber wenn Du das, wenn Du da grade so drüber sprichst, dann fällt mir auf, das ist auch was, was man von außen nicht so sieht, aber Amazon ist schon auch son Chaoshaufen. Also es ist irgendwie beides. Es ist teilweise eine natürlich eine hochprofessionelle Firma und also das sieht man allein an dem Erfolg. Die können Prozesse und die können optimieren und die können datengetrieben arbeiten und einfach wirklich, wirklich gute Technologie machen, teilweise.\n\nMhm. Und dann gibt's aber trotzdem die Stellen oder die Ecken wie in jedem Unternehmen, wo das auch 'n bisschen zerfällt. Und ich glaub auch ganz oft in meinem Job, also kommt immer drauf an, womit man's vergleicht, aber ganz oft hatt ich auch das Gefühl, es ist einfach eine komplette Shitshow. Und unser Job ist einfach halt nur diesen brennenden Müllhaufen zusammenzuhalten irgendwie. Und ne, und also ich ich sag jetzt vielleicht nichts über die konkreten Bereiche.\n\nIch weiß nicht mehr, was genau in meinem NDA Stand damals. Aber ich glaub, es ist nicht zu viel gesagt, weil ich einfach sag, wie in jedem Unternehmen, da arbeiten halt Menschen und nicht immer alles läuft so effizient, auch wenn so die Grundeinstellung und die Grundhaltung ist, dass man schon weiß, wie 'n wie 'n optimaler Prozess zu laufen hat. Aber das ist also das, es sei, dass man sich gut finde andererseits. Amazon ist ja auch bekannt dafür, dass es einfach customer centric ist und es geht am Ende den Kunden und es geht am Ende ums Produkt. Und deswegen ist es dann in dem Moment nicht so dogmatisch.\n\nAlso es das ist halt das, was was ich total schön auch fand und total befreiend, auch im Vergleich zu anderen Unternehmen, die ich kenne. Ist halt egal, wer dann was macht. Also es wirklich, es war wirklich, wirklich egal, dass ich halt eine Content Editor in München bin, sondern wenn das funktioniert, funktioniert's. Und dann haben alle meine Chefs mich auch immer unterstützt dabei, das halt dann auch nach oben zu spielen, das auszurollen. Da steht sich niemand selber im Weg mit, ah, eigentlich sollte das so sein und eigentlich wär der Prozess anders, sondern es geht ums Ergebnis.\n\nUnd das ist das ist, glaub ich, wirklich was, wo sich viele andere Unternehmen, grade die großen bürokratischen, auch was von abschneiden können, halt einfach 'n Ziel vor Augen haben und dann machen und dann nicht zu viel fragen, oh, haben wir das immer so gemacht? Oder sollte nicht eigentlich jemand anderes da noch mal 'n Auge drauf haben so?\n\nSpeaker 0: Ich glaub, damit hast Du auch gefühlt schon die Antwort für meine zweiten Unterschied irgendwie zu, wie läuft das in sozusagen in der Finanzbranche? Weil der Apartment, das Du meintest so, man ist angehalten, alle halbe Jahr bis Jahr den Job irgendwie zu wechseln und dann ist man so die ganze Zeit auf einem son hohen produktiv Produktivitätsniveau, was vielleicht auch zu Burn out führt, aber so man holt das Maximale aus der menschlichen Ressource raus. Dieses man ist 'n halbes Jahr bis 'n Jahr im Job hab ich auch bei den Banken gesehen. Aber da hab ich eher das Gefühl, das war ein das war die Krankheit, dass sozusagen Leute das nutzen. Ich hoppe einfach ein jedes Jahr irgendwie aufn anderen Job.\n\nDas heißt, im ersten halben Jahr kann ich einfach nur große Thesen in den Raum stellen. Keiner erwartet was von mir. Mhm. Und kurz bevor es dann dahin kommt und sagt, jetzt krieg ich langsamer Lieferverantwortung, Mhm. Wechsel ich den Job.\n\nUnd das ist eher das Tool, sozusagen Arbeit von einem wegzuhalten und sehr lange mit nur Worten durchzukommen. Deswegen sehr interessant, dass aber ist vielleicht auch der Unterschied, sodass man halt sagt, man hat 'n klares Ziel vor Augen, man muss hier liefern und dann kann man aus diesem aus diesem gleichen Tool mit häufigen Wechseln eher viel rausholen, als das vielleicht bei Banken der Fall war, dass man damit sehr viel weniger rausholt.\n\nSpeaker 2: Und die Grundgeschwindigkeit ist wahrscheinlich eine andere, ne. Also dadurch, dass alle bei Amazon sehr schnell denken und sehr schnell wechseln, brauchst Du halt auch nur 'n paar Wochen, dich einzuarbeiten. Und nach 'n paar Wochen wird schon dir halt schon gefordert, dass Du Ergebnisse lieferst. Und alle dich rum arbeiten dich auch schnell ein und dann, also das ist, glaub ich, vielleicht ist ein Jahr bei Amazon halt so viel wie in 'nem anderen Unternehmen 3, 4 Jahre im Sinne von wie lang man auch braucht, zu lernen. Und ich mein, das was auch was, was Amazon gut kann.\n\nEs ist halt dann sehr vieles auch einfach dokumentiert und die werfen ja halt am Ende die Dokumentation hin und dann, jetzt ist da musst Du nicht irgendwie monatelang Meetings machen, bis Du verstehst, wie der Laden läuft, sondern der Laden läuft und Du wirst dann da reingeworfen, ja.\n\nSpeaker 0: Cool. Vielleicht, weil wir 'n bisschen, wenn wir auf die Uhr blicken wollen, noch 'n bisschen was KI unterhalten wollen. Lass uns mal den Fast forward machen zu, wie kam's dann der Schritt wieder zurück von Amazon hin, wieder zum Journalismus. Und jetzt Podcast vom Host vom KI Podcast, Chief AI Officer, wie wie kam wie kam dieser Switch von Amazon dann da wieder raus und zurück in KI und Journalismus?\n\nSpeaker 2: Ja. Irgendwann hat's gereicht bei Amazon. Also ne, ich hab da so diese Burn out Sachen angesprochen. Ich Ich hab superviele Leute mich rum ausbrennen gesehen, natürlich dann auch noch mehr während der Pandemie. Ich weiß nicht, ich hab selber nie mir eine professionelle Diagnose geholt, aber glaub schon, dass ich auch mal 'n kleines Burn out zumindest hatte und mich dann davon wieder erholt hab und dann noch mal in in Deutschland noch mal diese Produktmanagerrolle hatte.\n\nAber ich hab auch gemerkt dann, also da ging's halt dann Launches und da ging's da drum, das effizient zu machen. Aber ich hatte dann das Gefühl, ich hab da auch wieder son Plateau erreicht und die nächste Beförderung wär dann halt Director gewesen. Und da hab ich dann auch gemerkt, das reizt mich nicht und dafür hab ich aber auch die Energie nicht. Also es wär halt noch mal eine krasse Beförderung gewesen, die anzustreben. Ich hatte natürlich sagen können, ich bleib in dem Job, aber da hatt ich halt son bisschen das Gefühl, ich lern da jetzt nichts mehr Neues, sondern ich manage halt einfach meinen Alltag so weg und das ist manchmal cool und manchmal nervig.\n\nAber es gibt halt nicht so den logischen nächsten Schritt. Und der logische nächste Schritt auf dann irgendwie Europalevel oder so was zu gehen, da wusst ich halt so, nee, das da müsst ich mich jetzt mega reinhängen und auch die Ellbogen ausfahren, weil das halt dann auch einen Level ist, auf auf dem halt es wenige Stellen gibt und sehr viele Leute miteinander konkurrieren. Und ich weiß gar nicht, ob ich das alles so mir gedacht hab damals oder ob einfach halt die Stelle bei die neue Stelle quasi in mein mein Leben kam und ich dann erst gecheckt hab, es reicht. Aber es hat irgendwie so ganz gut gepasst. Also die Deutsche Welle hat eine Stelle ausgeschrieben, da ging's Innovationsmanagement im Lab, also irgendwas mit coolen Innovationsprojekten, irgendwas mit Technologiemanagement und halt in dem Bereich, der mich ja immer interessiert hat, also Journalismus.\n\nGenau. Und als ich irgendwie diese Stelle gesehen hab, hab ich, ich glaub, ich hab eigentlich gedacht, ich bewerb mich mal aus Spaß, zu gucken, ob die Journalisten mich noch wollen so.\n\nSpeaker 0: Mhm. Aha.\n\nSpeaker 2: Und hab eigentlich, hab 'n bisschen mir auch gedacht, ja, das wird wahrscheinlich nichts, weil ich auch bei Amazon natürlich extrem gut verdient hab dann auf dem Niveau Und wusste, in im Medienbereich verdienst Du einfach nicht das. Und außerdem wusst ich ja nicht, ob ob das irgendwie für die überhaupt akzeptabel ist, dass ich jetzt jahrelang auf der dunklen Seite war. Mhm. Und am Ende haben die mir aber 'n Angebot gemacht. Und ich hab lange drüber nachgedacht, ob ich quasi auch von meinem Gehaltsniveau runterwill, aber fand dann den Laden so sympathisch, hatte einfach so Bock auf diese Jobbeschreibung.\n\nUnd hab dann gesagt, okay, ja, ich hab jetzt 'n bisschen bisschen Geld verdient, die letzten Jahre auch meine Aktienpakete ja mitgenommen. Ich kann mir das vielleicht auch einfach gönnen, noch mal 'n schlechter bezahlten Job zu machen und dafür halt bei 'nem Unternehmen was Werte hat, an die ich glaube und Mhm. Was eine coole, wichtige Arbeit macht für die Demokratie und die Freiheit auf der Welt so. Genau. Und dann bin ich gewechselt, dann bin ich nach Berlin gezogen und und hab bei der Deutschen Welle angefangen.\n\nSpeaker 1: Was haben die denn gesagt zu deiner dunklen Seite? Oder hatten sie gar keinen Take dazu?\n\nSpeaker 2: Hat mich immer überrascht, aber auch auch aus anderen Bereichen im Journalismus. Das war nie 'n Thema, sondern es war eher so, dass es, glaub ich, total gut für meinen Lebenslauf war. Ich irgendwie beeindruckt Amazon als Name die Leute auch total. Das hat mich auch überrascht, wie krass das ist. Ich glaub, es gibt mir auf eine Art noch mal eine Credibility, die ich auch nicht erwartet hätte.\n\nAber ich hör ich hör wenig so, oh, aber moralisch ganz schlimm, dass Du für die gearbeitet hast, sondern mehr so, ach cool, Du kannst bestimmt was, weil wir gucken da von außen drauf und es scheint zu funktionieren, was die machen. Also was auch immer Du da gelernt hast, bitte bring das zu uns. Also es war tatsächlich viel, viel offener, als ich dachte.\n\nSpeaker 0: Das ist aber generell interessant, finde ich, an dem Unternehmen Amazon, sodass wenn man halt so, glaube ich, auch aus der Techbranche draufblickt und irgendwie als Amazon als Unternehmen das Techunternehmen sieht, ist das so superbeeindruckend und irgendwie supercool, auch mit ABS, einfach was die da drum rum machen. Und andererseits ist das das Produkt Amazon, Amazon d e, der der E-Commerce-Store ist natürlich irgendwie hat eine ganz andere, darauf hat man eine ganz andere Sicht. Und irgendwie, wenn ich wirklich auf das Produkt schaue, denke ich anders darüber nach als auf das Unternehmen. Man arbeitet da und entwickelt Techprodukte so. Also ich hab da auch irgendwie son je nachdem, über welches Amazon ich rede, hab ich eine andere Meinung über dieses Unternehmen.\n\nAlso es ist nicht es ist der Inhalt und und Umsetzung und Art Company sind schon 2 2 Paar Schuhe. Ich glaub auch auch grade bei der Company so, ob man im Tech Bereich ist oder ob man eher in den Warehouse von Amazon\n\nSpeaker 2: arbeitet. Ja, das ist auch interessant. Ja, das ist auch, glaub ich, was ganz anderes für wie sich's für die Mitarbeitenden anfühlt, ja. Also es gibt schon, es sind schon viele viele Firmen in 1 sozusagen und Alexa ist auch noch mal 'n eigener Kosmos. Vielleicht spielt das auch eine Rolle, dass ich nicht E-Commerce gemacht hab, sondern Alexa und dass dann die Leute da schon sehen, das hat irgendwie noch was mit Content zu tun gehabt oder weiß ich nicht.\n\nDa werd ich halt dann viel gefragt, ob wir alle abgehört werden Und kann aus meiner Sicht, aus dem, was ich gesehen hab, beruhigen, aber\n\nSpeaker 0: Das ist nicht so.\n\nSpeaker 1: Würdest Du denn sagen, dass sich dein journalistischer Blick oder geändert wahrscheinlich, aber auch verbessert hat dadurch, dass Du vielleicht so intern in diesen Dingen warst?\n\nSpeaker 2: Das ist eine sehr gute Frage. Ich glaub schon, dass es mir total was gebracht hat. Also ich glaub, es hat mir was gebracht, ausm Journalismus raus zu sein, egal wo. Weil der Journalismus ist ja auch eine Bubble und das sind dann auch bestimmte Blickwinkel einfach vorherrschend. Und ich glaub, das hilft mir, dass ich auch mal von außen einfach drauf geguckt hab.\n\nSpeaker 0: Und und\n\nSpeaker 2: nicht jetzt einfach für immer so in meinen da auch diesen nur quasi den journalistischen Idealismus hatte und und nur und nur wusste, wie Medien Leute untereinander reden. Und jetzt, wenn ich jetzt auf Amazon und die anderen Tech Krisen gucke, dann hab ich natürlich auch einfach einen 'n bestimmtes Gefühl und einen bestimmten Blickwinkel und eine bestimmte Meinung dazu, wie die agieren. Und klar, man sieht auch man sieht auch immer nur einen Teil von der Wahrheit, also auch auch von innen seh ich ja nicht alles, was das Unternehmen ausmacht. Aber ich glaub schon, dass es mir jetzt hilft, kritisch zu sein. In der KI Berichterstattung haben wir's ja grade total stark, dass viele leider einfach halt nur wiedergeben, was die was die Techies sagen.\n\nAlso dass dass man da auch, glaub ich, 'n bisschen ehrfürchtig ist. Und ich glaub halt auch viele Menschen, die im Journalismus arbeiten, die halt sich nicht als Techies begreifen, dass die auch so sone mentale Schranke haben und dann denken so, ah, aber ich habe eben nicht Computer Science in Stanford studiert. Und deswegen muss ich das ja eigentlich glauben. Und wenn die mir dann sagen, das, was die bauen, ist total krass, dann kann ich das ja nicht hinterfragen, aber ich hab ja keine Ahnung, das ist ja irgendwas mit Zahlen. Ich mach ja Buchstaben aus 'nem Grund, weil ich Martin noch nie mochte.\n\nUnd das ist son sone eine Haltung oder 'n Bauchgefühl, was ich total viel sehe. Und was dann, glaub ich, dazu führt, dass man teilweise halt einfach unkritisch auch die Storys übernimmt und nicht so sehr durchblickt, dass es halt einfach auch 'n krasses Marketing ist und dass die auch bewusst sich als Nerds inszenieren und bewusst ihre Technologie als was inszenieren, was man nicht verstehen kann. Mhm.\n\nSpeaker 0: Und es\n\nSpeaker 2: ist, find ich, nicht die Rolle des Journalismus, sondern die Rolle des Journalismus ist eigentlich, sich in komplexe Sachen einzuarbeiten, Dinge zu verstehen, auch wenn sie schwierig zu verstehen sind. Das machen wir auch in der Politik, das machen wir auch in der Wirtschaft, das machen wir in in allen Bereichen. Und ich glaub, dass, auf eine Art hilft es mir, dass ich das Unternehmen von innen gesehen hab, weil ich halt auch weiß, wie die über PR nachdenken, was dann wirklich da intern funktioniert und was halt 'n brennendes Damster Feier ist so. Und ich glaub, das ja, hatten wir ganz gut getan, beide beide Bereiche mal zu sehen.\n\nSpeaker 0: Ich find auch, wenn man grade den KI Podcast hört und irgendwie deinen dich da auch reden hört in dem Podcast, da find ich auch, dass es Ich mein, ihr macht da ja den, ihr bringt KI der breiten Masse in Deutschland irgendwie näher. Also das heißt, es sind jetzt nicht in erster Linie Techies, wie jetzt bei uns die Zielgruppe ist, so wo man sagt, man geht irgendwie in die Technik in Finessen rein. Aber ich find auch, wenn man dir dabei zuhört, merkt man, obwohl das auf der Flughöhe ist, dass da draußen jeder verstehen kann, dass Du sehr tief irgendwie in den Themen drin bist und irgendwie weiß, wovon Du redest und irgendwie an den richtigen Stellen irgendwie den Kontext gibst, den da draußen auch Leute verstehen können. Man merkt aber, Du hast dich im Detail damit auseinandergesetzt. Vielleicht kannst Du uns mal, wenn wir jetzt wirklich auf das Heute gehen, weil damit wir gleich noch 'n bisschen Zeit haben über KI im Allgemeinen zu reden.\n\nWie sieht denn heute so dein Alltag, Arbeitsalltag son bisschen aus und wie kriegst Du es hin, dir diese Themen so anzuschauen, so ohne Also wir wir als Techis sind ja so, wir haben ja einen Anwendungsfall, probieren KI zu nutzen, Anwendungsfälle damit umzusetzen und reden ja auch in 'nem Podcast dann auch darüber, über wie wir's in der Arbeit irgendwie einsetzen. Aber so wie wie machst Du das? Wie stellt man sich das wie stellt man sich das vor, wo es ja das Gefühl so ist so, das Produkt ist am Ende immer den Leuten was davon zu erzählen so und welche Projekte sucht man sich, irgendwie da am Ball zu bleiben und in diese Details reinzugehen so. Also das ist, glaube ich, was, was für uns als Techies und vielleicht unseren Zuhörern so nicht so natürlich kommt, zu verstehen, wie dein Arbeitsalltag so als GFAI Officer und Podcast Host zu dem Thema aussieht.\n\nSpeaker 2: Ja. Ja, also erst mal danke, weil das ist voll cool zu hören, dass das so ankommt. Also das ist das, was wir versuchen mit dem Podcast halt wirklich fürn breites Publikum. Nicht zu oberflächlich zu sein, dass es die Techies langweilt, aber halt auch nicht so, dass es nicht Weil wir wir wissen, es muss ganz viele Mütter und Väter und Omas und Opas auch hören und auch irgendwas mitnehmen können daraus.\n\nSpeaker 0: Also die Techies langweilt ihr auf jeden Fall nicht. Ich hör's sehr gern.\n\nSpeaker 2: Das ist echt, das ist echt supercool. Aber wir kriegen auch viele Zuschriften und freuen uns immer, wenn Leute dann auch so, wenn wir dann merken, oh, die haben echte technische Berufe und echte Techies, gehören uns auch. Das ist schon irgendwie eine Auszeichnung, weil ja, irgendwie gibt's so in den Köpfen son bisschen diese Trennung halt zwischen so Journalismus, Sozialwissenschaften, Kulturleuten und dann halt den Leuten, die wirklich echte Techniken mit Zahlen und Semikolons Semikolon, ne. Wissen, wo\n\nSpeaker 0: die Semikolon ziehen müssen.\n\nSpeaker 2: Ich versuch, also ich glaub, was was für mich gut war, ist, dass ich einfach keine Angst vor dem Thema hatte jemals. Und das irgendwie geschafft habe, auch durch coole Leute mich rum wie mein Kollege damals oder halt wie Andre Caparthy, die halt dann einfach Dinge teilen auf eine Art, dass man als Nuntaggy das verstehen kann. Ich hab mich immer getraut, da einzutauchen und ich hab mich nicht abschrecken lassen, auch von technischen Papers oder von ja, halt davon auch mal Code zu lesen oder auch mal Dinge Dinge zu lesen, wo wo man vielleicht nicht ins letzte Detail, wo ich vielleicht nicht ins letzte Detail eigentlich die Grundlagen hab, das zu verstehen. Ich glaub, das ist superwichtig, dass man einfach keine Berührungsängste hat. Das ist 'n bisschen, wie wenn man eine Sprache lernt.\n\nUnd es gibt dann Leute, die trauen sich nie, die Sprache zu sprechen, obwohl sie sie eigentlich total gut können, weil sie einfach vor jedem Grammatikfehler, den sie machen könnten, Angst haben.\n\nSpeaker 0: Mhm.\n\nSpeaker 2: Und andere Leute oder dieselben Leute, wenn sie 'n Bier getrunken haben, trauen sich einfach zu reden. Und dann dann klappt's auch total und das merkt man. Also da bin ich auch total dankbar all den anderen Leuten, die Content machen, quasi auf 'nem noch technischeren Niveau. Weil ich hör total viele Podcasts selber, ich guck total viele Youtube Videos. Jannick Kirchher ist zum Beispiel noch so 1, den ich super finde, der erklärt immer KI Paper.\n\nUnd der erklärt die halt auf eine Art, dass ich was mitnehme. Und ich hör auch viele Podcasts, die einfach eigentlich technischer sind, als es als mein Alltag\n\nSpeaker 0: betreffen\n\nSpeaker 2: würde. Aber irgendwas nehm ich mit. Und wenn ich halt dann 20 Prozent von dem, was besprochen wird, nicht verstehe, ist auch egal, weil keine Ahnung. Ich merk ich merk dann, glaub ich, wenn's wichtig wird und dann hockt man sich halt hin und dann geht man wirklich 'n Paper einfach Satz für Satz durch und schaut die Begriffe nach, die man nicht versteht oder heutzutage lässt sich das von 'nem Chatbot erklären. Und ich glaub, das reicht.\n\nAlso das ist ja auch was, was viele Menschen im Journalismus auszeichnet, wenn man wenn man einfach Bock hat, sich auch einzugraben in so Themen und Spaß dadran hat, in sone Recherche rabbit Hole zu gehen, dann kann man ja alles lernen. Und das heißt, das ist für mich auch son bisschen die Challenge in meinem Alltag, weil also Du hast gesagt, ne, vieles lernt man ja auch irgendwie beim Doing, bei Projekten. Ich versuch da son bisschen eine Balance zu finden. Also ich versuch meinen meinen Alltagsjob zu machen und daneben so wohl Zeit zu haben, einfach wirklich ganz viel zu konsumieren, ganz viel zu lesen und Podcasts zu hören und Youtube Videos zu gucken über die Dinge, die ich lernen will. Und dann versuch ich auch noch halt natürlich viel praktisch zu machen und selber einfach immer die neuesten Tools auszuprobieren.\n\nUnd da ist, glaub ich, mein Glück, dass sich auch die verschiedenen Projekte, die ich mach, gegenseitig befeuern. Weil weil dadurch, dass wir halt einfach einmal die Woche eine Folge KI Podcast machen, ich muss ja wissen, worüber ich spreche. Das heißt, ich bin son bisschen auch gezwungen. Ich ich muss halt meinen Tag haben, wo ich dann viel lese und einfach mitkriege, was das Neueste ist. Und wir haben ja immer auch eine Rubrik am Ende, was hab ich diese Woche mit KI gemacht?\n\nAlso es ist so, es motiviert mich quasi selber, dass ich immer auch auch Dinge ausprobiere. Genau. Und das versuch ich ja natürlich in meinem Alltagsjob auch, also bei bei der Deutschen Welle manage ich eher KI Projekte und manage 'n Team und versuch also strukturell dem Laden zu helfen, dass dass halt die richtigen Dinge passieren, strategisch und praktisch, dass wir bei KI weiterkommen. Aber auch da versuch ich mir einfach die Zeit zu nehmen, dass ich halt auch mal selber was ausprobiere oder dass mich dass ich mir mich halt mit jemand zusammensetze, der 'n Projekt gemacht hat und und wirklich sag, erklär mir mal, wie das funktioniert. Und ja, und ich glaub, dadurch, dass ich halt schon lese, was quasi an der Cuting Edge passiert oder halt die Youtube Videos gucke, die mir die neuesten Paper erklären, hilft es mir halt auch dann bestimmte Fragen zu stellen an die Techies bei der Deutschen Welle.\n\nAlso auch wenn ich nicht auf dem Niveau wie die dann genau verstehe, was sie machen, hilft es, glaub ich, trotzdem, dass ich quasi so diesen breiteren Blick hab und dann aus 'ner Produktsicht zum Beispiel dann noch mal nachfrage, wo wollen wir damit eigentlich hin und wie würdest Du das machen? Und hast schon diesen oder jeden jeden Ansatz probiert.\n\nSpeaker 0: Ja cool. Ich find, Du hast grad irgendwie einen interessanten Satz so irgendwie gesagt so zu dem, dass viel davon auch irgendwie Marketing ist so im ganzen Bereich. Wenn wir mal irgendwie vielleicht mal 'n bisschen jetzt auf das Thema KI irgendwie kommen, dann haben wir 1 jetzt vorhin darüber gesprochen so. Du warst 2017 irgendwie, hast da einen neuronales Netzwerk trainiert, irgendwie Text zu generieren und gesagt, das wird niemals irgendwie sinnvoll 'n Text schreiben. Jetzt sind wir 9 Jahre später und können's, glaub ich, sagen, so, das hat schafft's definitiv.\n\nUnd ich glaub, wir sind uns auch wahrscheinlich alle in dieser Runde und einigen anderen Runden einig, dass dass das noch sehr viel schneller, sehr viel weitergehen wird und uns alle sehr stark beeinflussen wird in unserem Arbeitsalltag und tendenziell sehr schnell noch sehr viel mehr können wird, als es jetzt grade tut. Und andererseits bin ich immer, wenn ich da draufblick, irgendwie so ambivalent mit diesem Teil, was davon irgendwie Marketing ist und ich mich immer so mit diesem so, ja, ich merke, was das fürn Einfluss jetzt auf mich hat. Und ich weiß, es wird noch 'n sehr viel stärkeren Einfluss haben und ich muss mich damit beschäftigen und muss irgendwie gucken, wie sich mein Arbeitsalltag auch verändert. Und andererseits ist irgendwie, wenn man dann Leute aus diesem Bereich hört und irgendwie auch in anderen Podcasts hört, so ich auch gerne so was wie Darry of the Hero, wo auch viele Leute sind, da wird immer von den so apokalyptischen Szenarien, es wird immer der Begriff AGI wird da irgendwie immer so viel genannt und irgendwie, wie sehr es alles disruptieren wird, was wir irgendwie tun, weil in dieser Vorstellung am Ende alles, was irgendwie Knowledge Work ist von der AI getan wird und wir am Ende nur noch mit bedingungslosem Grundeinkommen dasitzen und die AI den Rest irgendwie steuert.\n\nWo ich irgendwie so denke, ja, dass es absolut ist, geh ich total mit. Aber irgendwie diese Vorstellung davon ist für mich immer ein so, ich packe das so stark in diese Marketingschiene, weil ich denke, da müssen noch so viel Dinge passieren. Ich glaub auch so viel grundlegendere Dinge, dieses Szenario wirklich ein realistisches Szenario ist. Und frag mich einfach so bei diesem Ganzen, wenn ich darauf blicke so, ist, glauben die das wirklich oder wie viel ist davon Marketing so? Und ich würd mir so von dir eigentlich könnt ich gerne hören so, wie wie wie ist dein Blick dadrauf son bisschen auf dieses so, was davon ist Marketing, was davon ist realistisch?\n\nWie blickst Du so auf die nächsten Jahre und diesen Begriff, den den grade aus dieser Tech Bubble, so der AGI Begriff, wie er wie er so da draußen geprägt wird. So hast Du da 'n ähnlichen Blick drauf? Hast Du da 'n ambivalentteren Blick drauf?\n\nSpeaker 2: Ja, also ich seh das ganz ähnlich. Und ich frag mich, ich frag mich genau das auch immer. Ich frag mich, was glauben die Leute im Silicon Valley zum Beispiel selber? Ich glaub, mein Blick dadrauf ist, ich würde nie davon ausgehen, dass alle Leute ehrlich sind, weil einfach manche Leute sind einfach zu gut, zu erfolgreich darin und teilweise sehen wir auch die Beispiele, wo sie nicht ähnlich sind. Und also auch das, was ich von innen gesehen hab, das wär total naiv zu glauben, dass Du dir nicht überlegst, was ist unsere PR Botschaft, die total unabhängig davon sein kann, was Du in Wirklichkeit die letzten paar Monate gemacht hast, sondern ne, Du erzählst immer auch eine Story.\n\nDu überlegst immer, was macht dich erfolgreich? Und also das, was deine Ziele sind, wir haben ja bei Amazon auch über dieses datengetriebene geredet. Dein Ziel ist halt Marktmacht oder dein Ziel ist Return on Investment oder dein Ziel ist, welche Metrik auch immer zu optimieren, im Zweifel am Ende des Tages Geld aufm Konto von Jeff Bezos. So, das das ist, glaub ich, das, was zählt für die meisten Menschen. Und ich glaub, wenn Du nicht diese Denke hast, dann wirst Du auch in den meisten Fällen nicht CEO und dann kommst Du nicht so hoch.\n\nOder Du wirst nicht diese große Techfirma. Du wirst halt nicht dieser Riese auf dem Markt, der die ganzen anderen aufkauft und der halt wirklich so den Markt für sich so behaupten kann, wenn Du nicht son bisschen diese Denke hast. Also son Predatory Mindset irgendwie, das das klingt jetzt total wertend, aber ich mein das tatsächlich einfach halt nur auf dem auf dem faktischen Level von, was ist das Ziel? Wo worauf arbeitest Du hin jede Woche? Dass dein Unternehmen größer wird und die anderen Das ist\n\nSpeaker 0: das, was man im im Tech Bereich sieht, ja.\n\nSpeaker 2: Genau. Deswegen versuch ich immer, jede Pressemitteilung, jeden Launch, alles, was so passiert im KI Bereich schon auch mit dieser kritischen Haltung zu sehen und halt zu überlegen, also einfach zu wissen, im Hinterkopf zu wissen, das, was die mir erzählen, ist nicht zwingend genau das, was die Wahrheit ist und was sie denken oder nicht die ganze Wahrheit, was sie denken. Ich glaub aber auch, dass es schon viele Leute im im Silicon Valley oder im KI Bereich gibt, die schon auch da arbeiten, weil sie halt auch Sci Fi Nerds sind und auch einfach an an die Story glauben. Und die die Story ist ja auch Die Story hat einen Wert an sich, also diese Erzählung oder dieser Glaube daran, dass man jetzt so das nächste große Ding der Menschheit baut und dass wir vielleicht damit auch dann was total Großartiges erreichen. Ich glaub, das muss sich nicht ausschließen, dass die Branche an sich teilweise einfach halt wirklich ihren PR Fokus hat und ihre Ziele hat und es trotzdem aber Leute auch selber ihre eigene Story glauben oder halt auch einfach ihren Teil beitragen zu wollen, zu was, das sie denken, dass gut ist und dass das auch in Teilen gut ist.\n\nWeil ich glaub auch, viele Leute können ja auch nicht oder wollen nicht an was arbeiten, an das sie nicht glauben. Und deswegen ja, ich hab son bisschen die Vermutung, es gibt beides. Aber was ich spannend finde an der ganzen Sache ist halt schon, dass diese Narrativ so superstark ist. Also wenn man auch, ne, auch jetzt in den Gerichtsfällen, die's zum Beispiel gibt, wenn man dann diese E-Mails bekommt, die die hin- und herschreiben und so was da, weil man weiß einfach, wie die Enzropic Geschwister dann da drüber sprechen, wie sie von OpenAI weggegangen sind und die diese ganzen Dinge. Es ist schon 'n superinteressantes Biotop, find ich.\n\nAlso es ist wirklich sone sone Welt, die die sich da bauen und die die sich teilweise erzählen. Und vielleicht gibt's ja dann teilweise Zyniker und teilweise nicht, aber die Story an sich ist, glaub ich, total stark. Wir sind die wichtigsten Menschen der Welt, weil wir bauen einfach so die nächste Stufe der Evolution. Und das kann die Welt verändern zum Guten und zum Schlechten. Und das, die PR Effekte kannst Du natürlich nutzen, wie Du willst, zu sagen, ah, bitte reguliert uns, weil weil das wird alles so böse, in Klammern unausgesprochen.\n\nMacht mal Regulierung, weil wir sind jetzt schon die Größten und dann holt unsere Konkurrenz nicht auf. Oder Du kannst sagen, bitte reguliert uns nicht, weil wir müssen noch innovativ sein und ihr dürft uns nicht bremsen. Und Achtung, Europa reguliert ja immer nur und dann wird es aber nur dazu führen, dass sie dass sie zurückgelassen werden und oder China, Achtung China, ihr dürft uns nicht regulieren, weil sonst baut baut China zuerst die AGI und dann haben wir aber 'n Problem und so. Ich glaub, das das wird alles für sich genutzt, aber das ist für mich irgendwie nicht so stark zu trennen. Was ist quasi, was ist die Realität und was ist einfach eine Sci Fi Geschichte, die total gut funktioniert?\n\nSpeaker 0: Ja. Ja, ich glaub auch, dass die die Trennung davon ist superschwierig. Und wie Du auch sagst, die Story funktioniert ja auch. Und ich glaub, wir sind ja auch in 'nem Bereich, in dem wir auch nie da gewesene Fundingsummen brauchen, überhaupt diese Ziele zu erreichen. Und ich denke, allein dafür braucht es eben diese große Story, weil einem das ist 'n bisschen schwieriger zu sagen mit, ja, wir werden schon viele Bereiche disruptieren.\n\nEinige Leute werden AI nutzen, investiert doch mal bitte mehrere 100000000000 Dollar in uns so. Also das AGI- und Sci Fi Szenario und dass wir hier über die den die nächste Evolutionsstufe der Menschheit entscheiden, lässt sich auf jeden Fall besser besser verkaufen so.\n\nSpeaker 2: Ja und krass, wie gut das funktioniert. Also das wundert mich manchmal. Also dass es halt wirklich so, so gut funktioniert, also dass so viele Leute das kaufen. Aber ja.\n\nSpeaker 1: Das wollt ich auch sagen. Ich mein, hätte man früher irgendwie diese Story mal gebracht, wahrscheinlich hätte man meistens gesagt bekommen, so ja, nee, das ist Quatsch. Und jetzt wird's halt geglaubt. Und ich glaub, das liegt auch viel daran, dass A1 schon so viel Disruption gebracht hat. Also so viel, wie Du sagst, so vor 9 Jahren hättest Du nie gedacht, dass das geht.\n\nUnd sie haben's aber doch geschafft, aber sie haben auf 1 gewissen Ebene das Unmögliche geschafft oder das Undenkbare. Mhm. Und ich glaube, das lässt sich dann natürlich leicht übertragen und jeder will da auch irgendwie dran Oder viele, glaub ich, finden's gut daran zu glauben. Und wenn's Gründe dafür gibt, das zu machen, dann kann man das auch so fahren, ne. Aber ich mein, wie mach's, also mich würd mir noch mal interessieren, wie Du's dann schaffst sozusagen, was machst Du denn mit soner Pressemitteilung, wo Du das Gefühl hast, okay, die sind nicht ganz ehrlich.\n\nAlso wie findest Du dann für dich den Teil heraus, den Du irgendwie für realistisch hältst, für irgendwie Weil deine Aufgabe ist es ja auch irgendwie, daraus was zu ziehen, was Du dann weitergeben kannst, wo Du denkst, da steckt Wert drin. So, also das find ich nicht so einfach.\n\nSpeaker 2: Ja. Ich überleg grad, ob mir ob mir 'n Beispiel einfällt. Aber ich glaub, es hilft halt zu wissen, was auch so Corporate Floskeln sind. Und son bisschen son Gefühl dafür zu haben, was wird gesagt und was wird auch nicht gesagt? Also ich ich glaub, mir fallen dann Dinge auf, wenn ich eine Pressemitteilung lese oder wenn ich eine Launch Präsentation sehe, dann merkt man ja zum Beispiel, man merkt, ob die Demo live ist oder nicht.\n\nOder man merkt, welche Cases die demonstrieren und und welche nicht. Und dann, wenn man dazu noch das technische Verständnis hat, von was was eigentlich grade so State of the Art ist oder was sie versuchen zu sagen, was jetzt halt so der nächste Schritt ist, den sie geschafft haben, dann kann man, glaub ich, son bisschen einschätzen, wie viel wie viel Bullshit ist da dabei? Oder ja, oder präsentieren sie jetzt was, was sie wirklich fertig gebaut haben? Oder präsentieren sie jetzt wieder eine Story, die dann halt in 6 Monaten launchen wird oder coming soon Mhm. Launchen wird.\n\nUnd genau, ich versuch das schon einfach son bisschen zu dekonstruieren, was man auch ganz gut machen kann mit Benchmarks zum Beispiel, ne. Das halt, ich glaub, man muss einfach immer quasi versuchen, ein Level dahinterzugehen und zu fragen, was sagen sie? Und was ist aber, wenn ich nachfragen würde, was wär dahinter? Wenn ich wenn die sagen, wir haben die Halluzinationen reduziert von 7 Prozent auf 5 Prozent in dem Bereich so und so oder wir haben bei irgend 'nem Benchmark bessere Zahlen bekommen, dann siehst Du ja, was sie quasi dahinter hängen an Quellen. Ganz, also haben die überhaupt eine Definition von Halluzinationen gegeben?\n\nHat sich die Definition vielleicht geändert seit der letzten Pressemitteilung? Und das das find ich irgendwie auch so lustig im KI Bereich, weil ganz viel hat ja so diesen Paperaufbau. Also ganz viel ist ja, ich immer nicht, wie man das ausspricht, dieses, also also diese Latex Paper. Ja, ja. Die so wissenschaftlich aussehen.\n\nJa. Aber ganz oft ist da ja nichts dahinter. Wenn Du wirklich guckst, was da ist denn in den Fußnoten, dann ist sind das irgendwelche, keine Ahnung, zitieren die dann 'n Blogartikel von sich selber oder oder in der Fußnote ist eigentlich ja dann nur noch ja keine Quelle, sondern einfach nur noch 'n Satz, den sie halt nicht in den normalen Text reingeschrieben haben, der aber eigentlich nicht mehr Kontext gibt. Und das ist, glaub ich, wichtig. Ich ich muss ja ganz oft überhaupt nicht sagen, das, was die sagen, ist falsch.\n\nSondern ich muss ja nur einschätzen können, wissen wir 100 Prozent, dass das richtig ist? Oder muss man da 'n bisschen vorsichtig sein? Und und dann am Ende können wir alle nur spekulieren, weil also das hab ich oft genug bewiesen, was in 'nem halben Jahr ist oder was in 'nem Jahr ist, das weiß ich auch nicht. Aber ich glaub, man kann halt ganz gut gucken, wie ist die Sachlage? Was sind die Beweise, die wir haben?\n\nUnd was was wissen wir, was jetzt schon funktioniert? Und dann kann man's ausprobieren und selber testen oder halt die Testberichte von anderen Leuten lesen und sich angucken. Und dann dann merkt man ja schnell den Gap Mhm. Zwischen dem, was versprochen wird und dem, was möglich ist, ja. Jetzt\n\nSpeaker 0: hast Du grad gesagt, Du kannst auch noch spekulieren. Du weißt auch nicht, was in 'nem halben Jahr ist. Gut, dass jetzt meine nächste und gegen einen Frage auch eher in die Richtung geht, so was wirklich 'n spekulieren. Weil wir haben jetzt son bisschen die Brille hin zu und ist diese Story irgendwie, also ist das nur 'n Marketingding oder ist das 'n realistisches Szenario? Andererseits wissen wir, Garen und ich hier als Developer, unsere unser Alltag hat sich auf jeden Fall stark verändert durch AI.\n\nDein Alltag, weil wie Text generiert wird total. Du hast schon an einem Profession, dass Du vielleicht mal, dass Du Rapperin bist an die KI verloren. Und vielleicht kannst Du uns mal so, was glaubst Du, wenn wir jetzt mal eher nicht in 4, 5 Jahren blicken, sondern irgendwie auf dieses Jahr? So in welchen Bereichen werden wir als Nächstes so Disruption erleben, wie wir's vielleicht jetzt grade hier in bei uns bei dir, was jetzt wirklich Textgenerierung angeht, was dein täglich Brot ist und bei uns Codegenerierung, was ja auch nur eine Form von Text ist. Also was was glaubst Du, sind so die nächsten Bereiche, die sich die großen AI Firmen irgendwie angehen, wo sie sagen, jetzt haben sie ja grade angefangen diesen Jahres mit Co Work, also mehr irgendwie dann auch vielleicht in die Projektmanagementbereich zu gehen.\n\nSo, wenn wir jetzt mal doch mal probieren, ein bisschen in die Zukunft zu blicken, so, was sind so die nächsten Bereiche, die da von, wo AI noch mehr Einzug erhalten wird in den nächsten Monaten, in diesem Jahr? So, was welche Bereiche werden dann darüber so sprechen, wie wir als Developer darüber reden?\n\nSpeaker 2: Du hast was ganz Wichtiges angesprochen, nämlich die Bereiche, in denen das gut funktioniert grade oder in denen wir die die krassesten Fortschritte, die krasseste Disruption auch sehen, ist alles, was mit Text zu tun hat. Also Coding funktioniert ja deswegen besonders gut, weil es auch eine sehr strukturierte Form von Text ist. Also wenn ich eine Maschine habe, die halt den nächsten Drucken vorhersagt, die die Textmengen analysieren kann und verstehen kann, was für Zusammenhänge gibt's da, dann ist dann ist eigentlich klar, dass Coding gut funktioniert, weil der der ganze Sinn von Code ist ja, dass man 'n Text schreibt, der möglichst strukturiert ist, damit man halt damit man es schafft, dass eine Maschine damit arbeitet und damit nachvollziehbar ist und damit's, also damit Du quasi den Text verbindest mit was Physischem, was dann am Ende die Elektronen auf 'nem Chip sind. Also da da ist quasi die Verbindung zwischen der echten Welt und dem Text sehr viel verlässlicher, sehr viel direkter als bei vielen anderen Formen von Text ist. Und das das andere Extrem, was auch gut funktioniert, ist halt das der kreative Text.\n\nDeswegen haben wir ja auch eine Kolumne damals gemacht und nicht eine Nachrichtentext zum Beispiel, weil je subjektiver was ist oder je eher es einfach darum geht, dass der Text gut klingt oder dass es Vibes sind oder dass ja, dass es Geschwafel ist ehrlicherweise, desto weniger schlimm ist es, dass Du nicht terministisches System hast, sondern es ist halt einfach, ja, wenn's gut klingt, dann hat es seinen Wert. Und da gibt's viele Formen von Text und auch nicht nur Text, sondern auch Musik und Bilder, wo's halt einfach reicht, wenn der Wahl stimmt. Und wenn's am Ende so klingt wie 'n Schlager, dann ist es 'n Schlager. Und dann ist es egal, ob den Schlager eine KI geschrieben hat oder oder 'n Mensch. Und das heißt, ich glaub, das ist wichtig zu verstehen, wenn man überlegt, wo wo wird das hingehen?\n\nDas Spannendste finde ich, dass man halt jetzt immer stärker merkt, je größer die Kontextfenster werden und je besser auch die das Management die Sprachmodelle oder die Foundation Modelle drumrum funktionieren. Man merkt halt, wie viel Pseudodenken die Arbeit mit Text ermöglicht. Weil wenn ich 'n Projekt manage und mir überleg, was ist mein nächster Schritt, dann kann ich das auch in Text ausdrücken. Also dann kann ich das Nicht jeder Mensch denkt so und nicht alles, was wir denken, ist ist so in in Text auszudrücken. Aber ganz viel von dem, was ich in meinem Alltag mache, ist ja,\n\nSpeaker 0: wenn\n\nSpeaker 2: ich so paraphrasieren will, ah, ich habe eine E-Mail bekommen. Die E-Mail sagt mir, dass Person x y krank ist. Das heißt, was muss ich jetzt als Nächstes tun? Ah, ich sollte jemand finden, der die Vertretung von der Person ist und die dann fragen, ob sie Zeit hat, das Projekt weiterzuführen, so. Also oder in irgend 'ner Form kann ich ja in in Worten ausdrücken, was sinnvoll der nächste Schritte ist.\n\nUnd da ist Sprache quasi nicht so einfach zu unterscheiden von Denken. Und das ist das, was wir jetzt grade sehen mit diesen argentischen Systemen, was so spannend ist, was mich auch wiederum überrascht hat, wie gut das funktioniert oder wie schnell das quasi auf dieser Skala auch auch möglich ist. Also dass man einfach auch diese Rechenleistung, diese Kontextfenster dahinterhauen kann und dass das geht. Da ich ich glaub, Du hast es angedeutet, da glaub ich, passiert jetzt halt viel, dass man versuchen wird, verschiedene Systeme miteinander zu verknüpfen und den KI Systemen möglichst Zugang zu geben zu allen möglichen Interfaces, dass sie halt so diese Art von Projektmanagement machen können oder halt oder ja, in diesen menschlichen Bereich von Knowledgework irgendwie reingehen können. Weil ne, dass sie 'n Text zusammenfassen können, weiß man schon, dass sie irgendwie auch grob was recherchieren können im Internet, dass sie dann verstehen können, Zusammenhänge herstellen können zwischen dem, was sie recherchiert haben und da irgendwie 'n Output generieren, cool.\n\nIch glaub, dass dieser nächste Schritt schon sehr schwierig sein kann, weil wir jetzt halt an den Punkt kommen, wo wir nicht diese einfache Kette haben zwischen Input und Output. Also in dem Moment, wo's eine Zusammenfassung geht, dann brauch ich eben nur das Sprachmodell. Ich muss nur den Input reingeben, das Sprachmodell macht sein Ding und dann kommt der Output raus. Bei Coding ist es ja auch so. Ich hab 'n total begrenztes Umfeld.\n\nAlso ich hab einfach 'n 'n Datagesystem, das ist egal, wie viele Dateien das sind, aber die liegen, die können alle in einem Ordner liegen und dann kann die KI da drauf zugreifen und der Text an sich reicht, Arbeit damit zu machen. Wenn wir jetzt in andere Bereiche der Knowledgework gehen, in zum Beispiel Projektmanagement, Dann hab ich halt plötzlich aber nicht mehr nur sonen begrenzten Bereich, sondern hab ich total viele Unbekannte. Dann hab ich die ganzen Menschen, die auch auch offline miteinander reden, die auch krank sind, die auch sich aufm Flur treffen, die teilweise in dem Lateinmanagementsystem arbeiten, indem sie arbeiten sollen, aber teilweise auch nicht. Dann hab ich die ganzen verschiedenen Softwareschnittstellen von ganz unterschiedlichen Anbietern, wo's dann darauf ankommt, ob die KI die Schnittstelle sinnvoll nutzen kann. Und da reden wir ja auch grade viel drüber, was diese Schnittstellen der Zukunft sein können, wie man die anpassen muss, was man quasi für Protokolle dahinterlegt, damit die KIs möglichst Zugang zu diesen ganzen Dingen kriegen.\n\nAber ich glaub, das ist was, was noch unterschätzt wird. Und jetzt merkte, ich zöger aber, das hat, glaub ich, wieder mal sone Prognose wird, das es kann sein, dass es dann alles schneller geht und dann mehr Geld und mehr mehr Leistung dahinter gepackt wird, als ich jetzt denke. Aber ich glaub, da ist schon noch einiges zu tun. Also bis man unser unser ganzes menschlichen menschliches, bis man unser ganzes menschliches Arbeiten so weit umgestellt hat, dass es wirklich effektiv ist, dass KI Systeme dadrin arbeiten. Und dass man dann noch das auf eine Art geschafft hat, dass es einigermaßen sicher ist und vor geschützt ist.\n\nDa sind, glaub ich, noch einige große Probleme, die man lösen muss. Was nicht heißt, dass nicht so Molt Bots und und ähnliche Systeme auch total total trennten können in Bereichen, wo einem halt die Sicherheit vielleicht nicht so wichtig ist. Aber da da seh ich jetzt jedenfalls dieses Jahr noch nicht irgendwie die große Revolution und das totale Umkrempeln unserer Arbeitswelt, weil am Ende geht's auch Sicherheit, es geht auch Kosten Nutzen. Wir sehen, dass das ja auch 'n Bereich, das ja total stark subventioniert ist. Das habt ihr auch angesprochen, ne.\n\nAlso da einfach die, was ich halt für die Investments grade für eine Story brauche, ist was anderes, als was ich am Ende in 5 Jahren brauchen werde, wenn ich wirklich will, dass das nachhaltig finanzierbar ist und dass ich mir auch den Strom leisten kann für das Datencenter und nicht grade nur mit dem Kapital, das ich habe, vielleicht irgendwie quer finanziere, dass ich halt möglichst die größte Marketsare bekomme. Sehr lange Antwort, keine wirkliche Prognose, sorry, aber\n\nSpeaker 0: Aber ja, ich mein, grade so in diese dieser Arbeitsprozesse irgendwie reingeht, so da würde ich ja allein auch aus der These mitgehen, dass man sagt, das ist ja auch wieder eine Anreizfrage son bisschen, ne, weil Du meinst ja auch für die Story, die die großen Unternehmen brauchen. Klar, sie müssen irgendwann rentabel werden, aber erst mal müssen sie ja auch das erste Mal, das, was sie jetzt auf dem Weg dahin beweisen müssen, ist, dass sie überhaupt dieses Wachstum bekommen, was ihre Einnahmenseite angeht. Und wenn man sie einfach anschaut so, dass aktuell so was jetzt Subskriptions angeht und so was einfach der größte Kuchen, der zu holen ist, immer noch ist, wenn man Enterprise Software irgendwie herstellt und sagt, wenn man sich anschaut, wie viel über Teams gemacht wird, irgendwie Office 365. Das sind alles diese Tools, die irgendwie wohl dann im großen Scale Subscriptions abgeschlossen werden. Und ich glaube, das ist einfach der Markt, in dem die AI Unternehmen auch so den nächsten großen Teil vom Kuchen bekommen können, in ihrer Story halt genug Futter zu haben, dass sie sagen können, hier, schaut mal, wir sind wieder 10 x gewachsen, so unsere Story funktioniert weiterhin, AGI als die Karotte da vorne und alle Zwischenschritte, sozusagen den das einfach nur das den Umsatz wachsen lassen zu können.\n\nDeswegen glaub ich allein der Anreiz stimmt auch für die Unternehmen, dass sie genau da hingehen wollen, weil ich glaube, da ist der nächste große Bereich, in dem sich ein Kuchen, dem es gilt, sich einen Kuchen aufzuteilen. Deswegen\n\nSpeaker 2: auf jeden\n\nSpeaker 0: Fall mitgehen, wann\n\nSpeaker 2: total kluger Gedanke, ja.\n\nSpeaker 0: Ob das dieses Jahr ist, werden wir sehen. Wenn wir auf die Zeit blicken, ist leider, ich wir ich glaub, Gordon und ich könnten noch ewig mit dir darüber weiterreden. Wir kommen auch 'n bisschen ans Ende der Zeit. Beim CTO Special hören wir meistens mit der Frage auf, dann noch mal die Frage zurückzustellen. Und zwar, gibt es irgendeine Frage, die wir diesem Gespräch nicht gestellt haben, wo Du dachtest, ah, wenn ich mit Fabio und Garet in diesem Techpodcast rede, dann müssen wir auf jeden Fall oder werden wir auf jeden Fall darüber reden.\n\nGibt es irgendwas, wo's wo Du das Gefühl hast, so Fabi Gareth, die Frage hättet ihr mir noch stellen sollen. Falls ja, ist das deine Chance, sie dir selbst zu stellen oder den Raum zu\n\nSpeaker 2: Ihr wart ihr wart total gute Interview. Also es hat mir mega Spaß gemacht. Ich mir fällt jetzt auch keine Frage ein. Ich find auch die letzte Frage sehr gut. Vielleicht darf ich noch Dinge empfehlen.\n\nSpeaker 0: Was magst Du uns empfehlen? Ja, Marie, sehr gerne. Gib mir son paar Empfehlungen.\n\nSpeaker 2: Ja. Also es ist jetzt spontan, hab ich jetzt nichts vorbereitet, aber ich hau einfach mal 'n paar Sachen raus. Ich folge Joanna Brison total gerne, ist eine Professorin an der Hürerty School, die auch sehr gut diese analysiert und auch was die Politik und die Regulierung und die quasi demokratischen Strömungen dahinter, nicht demokratischen, die demokratischen Implikationen, die das gesellschaftliche Drumherum angeht. Das ist auf jeden Fall eine eine Folgeempfehlung. Ich hab ja eine Kircher erwähnt, dessen Youtube Videos ich mag.\n\nIch finde Arvin Sarannajan und Sergeasz Capur total gut. Die haben einen Blog, die haben auch 'n Buch geschrieben über KI. Und irgendwie wollt ich noch unbedingt empfehlen. Ah ja, ich les grad das Buch von Audrey Tang, das die ehemalige Digitalministerin von Taiwan. Das Buch heißt Plurality und es ist auch 'n Open Source Projekt.\n\nAlso es wurde ist 'n Open Source geschriebenes Buch. Und da geht's darum, wie man Technologie unter anderem KI einsetzen kann halt für eine bessere, demokratischere, freiheitliche Zukunft. Das find ich total inspirierend, weil das ist genau das, was wir brauchen eigentlich, ne, wenn wir halt so diese Storys haben, die halt geprägt sind von einfach 'nem sehr bestimmten Milieu, hauptsächlich ins Silicon Valley, 'n bisschen auch in China. Was deren Vorstellung von der Welt ist, ist nicht die Vorstellung von den meisten Menschen auf der Welt, glaub ich. Aber es fehlen ja oft son bisschen zu Gegennarrative.\n\nWas könnten wir denn noch machen, anstatt einfach immer weiter diese Tech Giganten zu befeuern und immer weiter zu zentralisieren und einfach nur am Ende zu kaufen, was die gebaut haben. Und da find ich dieses Buch, bin grad in der Mitte, aber kann ich schon jetzt sagen, find ich total beflügelnd so, einfach noch mal zu denken, was man mit Technologie noch alles machen könnte.\n\nSpeaker 0: Sehr cool. Vielen Dank. Ich hab probiert, alles aufzuschreiben, weil ich werd dich im Nachhinein\n\nSpeaker 2: noch mal unbedingt Ich bin ja auch nicht.\n\nSpeaker 0: Wahrscheinlich so ist alles perfekt runtergeschrieben. Das heißt, wir packen das alles in die Shownotes. Und dann werb ich jetzt vielleicht auch noch eine Empfehlung mit dazu, weil es wird bestimmt der eine oder andere sich gefragt haben, was war Fabis komische Anspielung mit dem, dass die Rap Karriere von Marie wegen KI irgendwie gestorben ist?\n\nSpeaker 2: Kauft mein Rap Album.\n\nSpeaker 0: Genau, kauft das Rap Album. Aber wenn ihr die Auflösung wollt, dann hört doch gern mal in den KI Podcast rein von Marie. Wir packen mal den Link zu der Folge, wo das geklärt wird, was es damit auf sich hat, einfach auch mal in die Shownotes. Also hört da sehr gerne rein. Ich hab's ja auch schon mal gesagt, so ich auf meinem Arbeitswegörchen auch sehr gerne mal, weil's für mich auch gute Einordnung einfach noch mal gibt.\n\nUnd es ist bisschen anders eingeordnet, als wenn man sich sonen Techgy Podcast anguckt, wo es nur diese Details geht, sondern für mich so, dass gute Detailstufe und trotzdem auf 'ner Flughöhe, die mir irgendwie noch mal viel neue Inspiration auch gibt, auch wenn wir uns hier über KI unterhalten. Deswegen da definitiv die Empfehlung noch mal für deinen Podcast.\n\nSpeaker 2: Vielen, vielen Dank. Und dann sag ich, ich hör weiter den programmierbare Podcast und gib dem gute Bewertungen und schreib Fabio Garald nette E-Mails.\n\nSpeaker 0: Das da hast Du schon auch das jetzt am Ende gebracht, was wir sonst auch machen. Also die E-Mail-Podcast at Programmier Punkt bar. Marie, vielen, vielen Dank, dass Du dir Zeit genommen hast. Das hat sehr, sehr viel Spaß gemacht, mit mir da mit dir darüber zu reden. Wir hätten die Zeit auf jeden Fall noch weiterführen können, Echt\n\nSpeaker 2: zu landen.\n\nSpeaker 0: Gut anderthalb Stunden.\n\nSpeaker 2: Hat mir Megaspaß gemacht, genau, gerne wieder.\n\nSpeaker 1: Ich glaub, das ist 1 der ersten Podcasts, wo ich mit mehr Fragen irgendwie rausgehe, als ich reinkomme, weil ich so viele Themen spannend finde und\n\nSpeaker 2: Ich könnt da echt ernsthaft noch ewig mit euch weiterreden. Wo sitzt ihr noch mal?\n\nSpeaker 0: In Bad Nauheim.\n\nSpeaker 2: Aha. Da war ich, glaub ich, noch nie. Aber wenn ich da mal hinkommen bin,\n\nSpeaker 0: bin ich\n\nSpeaker 2: aber wieder gegessen. Frankfurt,\n\nSpeaker 1: ja, Frankfurt. Sehr gerne.\n\nSpeaker 0: Ja. Ja. Sehr, sehr gerne. Ansonsten auch, wenn man, aber das können wir im Auft sprechen. Wir hören noch drin, wir haben noch große Konferenzen, wo Du auch sehr gern gesehener Gast wärst.\n\nDas können wir vielleicht im Nachgang noch mal 'n bisschen bisschen besprechen. Also wir wir hätten auf jeden Fall Lust, uns da weiter drüber zu unterhalten. Super. Marie, dank dir. Noch 'n schönen Tag.\n\nEuch wie immer vielen Dank fürs Zuhören und bis zum nächsten Mal. Macht's gut. Tschau. Tschau. Tschüs.",[45054,45061,45065,45078,45089,45096,45109,45120,45133,45146,45159,45172,45179,45192,45203,45216,45228,45241,45248,45259,45263,45269,45282,45289,45293,45304,45317,45326,45338,45351,45358,45370,45382,45395,45408,45421,45434,45447,45454,45467,45471,45484,45489,45493,45497,45501,45514,45521,45527,45535,45543,45552,45557,45566,45569,45574,45577,45589,45602,45609,45617,45628,45641,45654,45666,45678,45690,45695,45700,45712,45725,45738,45751,45764,45773,45785,45793,45802,45813,45818,45827,45834,45841,45854,45866,45876,45888,45898,45910,45921,45925,45935,45946,45952,45956,45968,45981,45985,45989,45993,46000,46009,46015,46026,46036,46042,46051,46060,46066,46071,46076,46080,46093,46106,46119,46132,46140,46148,46159,46172,46184,46197,46208,46214,46226,46239,46252,46256,46269,46278,46284,46297,46303,46315,46327,46340,46352,46358,46371,46382,46388,46400,46405,46415,46426,46439,46452,46457,46461,46473,46485,46492,46505,46513,46525,46532,46544,46549,46553,46557,46570,46574,46586,46599,46606,46610,46620,46633,46644,46654,46660,46671,46675,46687,46691,46694,46706,46713,46716,46727,46739,46751,46762,46768,46780,46791,46804,46813,46825,46838,46850,46854,46866,46878,46890,46903,46914,46920,46930,46942,46953,46959,46970,46982,46994,47006,47017,47029,47040,47052,47064,47070,47083,47095,47107,47110,47123,47136,47149,47162,47175,47187,47193,47206,47212,47216,47220,47224,47236,47242,47255,47264,47275,47287,47299,47306,47314,47318,47326,47330,47342,47348,47354,47367,47371,47375,47380,47384,47390,47394,47401,47405,47410,47416,47427,47438],{"sentences":45055,"speaker":157,"num_words":45060,"start":155,"end":246},[45056,45058],{"text":45057,"start":155,"end":197},"Hallo und herzlich willkommen zu einem weiteren CTO Special der programmierbar.",{"text":45059,"start":202,"end":246},"Mein Name ist Fabian Fink und mit mir im Studio ist der Liebe",24,{"sentences":45062,"speaker":137,"num_words":36,"start":251,"end":258},[45063],{"text":45064,"start":251,"end":258},"Garelt Mogg.",{"sentences":45066,"speaker":157,"num_words":45077,"start":263,"end":701},[45067,45069,45071,45073,45075],{"text":45068,"start":263,"end":269},"Hi, Garelt.",{"text":45070,"start":274,"end":437},"Wie ihr wisst, nutzen wir das CTO Special gerne, 'n bisschen versteckt einfach mit Leuten zu reden, mit denen wir uns sehr gerne mal darüber unterhalten wollen, weil sie so spannende Werdegänge haben, dass wir uns die nicht entgehen lassen wollen, auch wenn der Titel nicht offiziell CTO ist.",{"text":45072,"start":437,"end":625},"So einen Fall haben wir heute wieder und es ist son bisschen, ich glaub bei mir, vielleicht beim Garald, wenn wir uns noch gar nicht vorher drüber unterhalten, kickt son bisschen das im Posthouse Syndrom, weil hier haben wir jemand, der das, was wir hier so seit ein paar Jahren stiefmütterlich behandelt machen, sehr professionell macht.",{"text":45074,"start":625,"end":651},"Und zwar haben wir uns Marie Kilk eingeladen.",{"text":45076,"start":651,"end":701},"Marie ist freie Journalistin, sie ist hauptsächlich Chief Air Officer bei der Deutschen Welle.",129,{"sentences":45079,"speaker":157,"num_words":45088,"start":701,"end":995},[45080,45082,45084,45086],{"text":45081,"start":701,"end":763},"Sie ist 1 von 3 Hosts des bekanntesten deutschen KI Podcast der ARD, der genannt wird der KI Podcast.",{"text":45083,"start":766,"end":847},"Sie ist Initiatorin des Zeit Zeit Newsletters natürlich intelligent und war unter anderem aber auch Senior Product Manager bei Amazon für Alexa.",{"text":45085,"start":851,"end":971},"Das heißt grade so, Gerald und ich, ja beide sehr, sehr interessiert an dem Thema KI, da haben wir heute jemand da, mit dem wir sehr, sehr gut darüber fachsimpeln können, sind sehr froh, dass sie heute hier ist.",{"text":45087,"start":971,"end":995},"Hallo Marie, schön, dass Du da bist.",87,{"sentences":45090,"speaker":36,"num_words":45095,"start":995,"end":1036},[45091,45093],{"text":45092,"start":995,"end":1011},"Hi, ich freu mich auch.",{"text":45094,"start":1011,"end":1036},"Ich freu mich immer über KI zu sprechen.",13,{"sentences":45097,"speaker":157,"num_words":45108,"start":1039,"end":1409},[45098,45100,45102,45104,45106],{"text":45099,"start":1039,"end":1057},"Ja, wir wir uns auch, genau.",{"text":45101,"start":1057,"end":1198},"Also das heißt son bisschen, was ihr erwarten könnt, die zweite Hälfte des CTO Specials wird son bisschen mehr sich dann KI drehen und vielleicht auch son bisschen vielleicht mal schauen, was dieses Jahr so, was wir 3 hier zusammen dafür vielleicht predigten und was Marie auch dazu sagt.",{"text":45103,"start":1198,"end":1266},"Aber natürlich wollen wir uns erst mal darüber unterhalten, Marie, wie Du eigentlich da hingekommen bist, was Du jetzt ja gerade alles tust.",{"text":45105,"start":1266,"end":1349},"So der KI Podcast, wie gesagt, ja sehr der eigentlich erfolgreichste deutsche KI Podcast und habe aber auch gerade gesagt, Du bist Chief Eye Officer bei der Deutschen Welle.",{"text":45107,"start":1349,"end":1409},"Vielleicht hast Du erst mal den Leuten son bisschen Kontext gibst, weil ich mein, wir kommen aus der Tech Bubble.",127,{"sentences":45110,"speaker":157,"num_words":45119,"start":1409,"end":1635},[45111,45113,45115,45117],{"text":45112,"start":1409,"end":1511},"Ich glaub, Du, so, wenn ich den Werdegang mir angucke, auch was Du gerade alles parallel machst, ist es eher vielleicht bei Journalisten typisch oder so, Handdampf in allen Gassen zu sein.",{"text":45114,"start":1511,"end":1545},"Bei uns ist es ja eher typisch so, ein Job sehr fokussiert.",{"text":45116,"start":1549,"end":1609},"Erst mal, hab ich da grundsätzlich irgendwas vergessen in der und kannst Du uns erklären, was eigentlich genau die Deutsche Welle ist?",{"text":45118,"start":1609,"end":1635},"Ich glaub, ist nicht jedem Begriff da draußen.",74,{"sentences":45121,"speaker":36,"num_words":45132,"start":1638,"end":1785},[45122,45124,45126,45128,45130],{"text":45123,"start":1638,"end":1651},"Ja, nee, total gerne.",{"text":45125,"start":1651,"end":1677},"Ich ob Du was vergessen hast, weiß ich nicht.",{"text":45127,"start":1677,"end":1692},"Kaum wir da nicht.",{"text":45129,"start":1695,"end":1742},"Genau, das ist schon son bisschen son son Thema bei mir, dass ich immer gerne viele verschiedene Sachen mache.",{"text":45131,"start":1742,"end":1785},"Und so bin ich auch zu dem KI Thema gekommen, weil's so weil's so vielfältig ist.",52,{"sentences":45134,"speaker":36,"num_words":45145,"start":1785,"end":2114},[45135,45137,45139,45141,45143],{"text":45136,"start":1785,"end":1806},"Und ich glaub auch, das ist auch 'n Journalistending.",{"text":45138,"start":1810,"end":1862},"Also ich hab mich als Jugendlicher, als Teenie schon für Journalismus interessiert, weil ich einfach wusste, mich interessiert alles.",{"text":45140,"start":1866,"end":1918},"Und ich dachte, Journalismus ist son Beruf, da darf man da darf man switchen die ganze Zeit, ne.",{"text":45142,"start":1918,"end":2049},"Also da kann ich ja so, als ich als Journalistin gearbeitet habe hauptsächlich, wars auch dann wirklich so, hab ich dann in der einen Woche irgendwas recherchiert über keine Ahnung, warum Drohnen jetzt grade so plötzlich so trendy werden, also halt so kleine Videodrohnen.",{"text":45144,"start":2053,"end":2114},"Und in der nächsten Woche durfte ich halt eine KI Expertin anrufen oder mit 'nem Mediziner über 'n Medizinthema sprechen.",110,{"sentences":45147,"speaker":36,"num_words":45158,"start":2114,"end":2386},[45148,45150,45152,45154,45156],{"text":45149,"start":2114,"end":2144},"Also das ist schon son son Hanfdampf Ding, glaub ich.",{"text":45151,"start":2144,"end":2226},"Genau, die Deutsche Welle, die ist in in Deutschland nicht so bekannt, sollte sie aber eigentlich sein, weil das ist 'n also 'n wichtiges Instrument auch der deutschen Politik.",{"text":45153,"start":2230,"end":2241},"Das ist nämlich der Auslandsrundfunksender.",{"text":45155,"start":2245,"end":2339},"Also die Deutsche Welle macht Journalismus für die ganze Welt auf 32 Sprachen, weil Deutschland eben sagt, wir es ist auch in unserem Interesse, dass andere Länder einerseits auch wissen, was Deutschland ist.",{"text":45157,"start":2339,"end":2386},"Das ist auch, früher war das noch stärker der Fokus, auch tatsächlich einfach Marketing für Deutschland.",93,{"sentences":45160,"speaker":36,"num_words":45171,"start":2390,"end":2808},[45161,45163,45165,45167,45169],{"text":45162,"start":2390,"end":2561},"Und heute immer mehr, leider halt aus geopolitischem Interesse, dass wir halt sagen, wenn die Pressefreiheit eingeschränkt ist in Ländern wie Russland und der Ukraine oder in den USA jetzt verstärkt, dann wollen wir, dass die Leute dort Informationen bekommen aus 'ner demokratischen Perspektive und einfach eine, ja, eine Möglichkeit haben, zu Pressefreiheit Zugang zu bekommen.",{"text":45164,"start":2564,"end":2635},"Und das machen wir teilweise aus den Ländern raus und teilweise aber auch aus Deutschland heraus, je nachdem, wie schlimm die Situation im jeweiligen Land grade ist.",{"text":45166,"start":2635,"end":2705},"Das heißt, wir arbeiten auch viel mit Zensurumgehung und so und sind aber eigentlich 'n ganz normales journalistisches Medienhaus, arbeiten auch journalistisch unabhängig.",{"text":45168,"start":2705,"end":2747},"Also es ist nicht nicht so, dass irgendjemand in der Politik dann diktiert, was wir berichten.",{"text":45170,"start":2751,"end":2808},"Wir berichten einfach nur das, was wir richtig finden, freiheitlich, demokratisch, aber wir bekommen das Geld vom Bundestag.",140,{"sentences":45173,"speaker":36,"num_words":187,"start":2812,"end":2847},[45174,45176,45178],{"text":45175,"start":2812,"end":2828},"Also wir sind quasi öffentlich rechtlich.",{"text":45177,"start":2832,"end":2844},"Das ist die Deutsche Welle.",{"text":2849,"start":2844,"end":2847},{"sentences":45180,"speaker":157,"num_words":45191,"start":2847,"end":3180},[45181,45183,45185,45187,45189],{"text":45182,"start":2847,"end":2856},"Sehr interessant.",{"text":45184,"start":2856,"end":2867},"Ja, vielen Dank.",{"text":45186,"start":2867,"end":2978},"Ich glaub, das hat einigen, also vorher auch mir war's auf jeden Fall 'n Begriff, aber so ganz genau war's jetzt die Aufgabenstellung ist so sehr cool, dass Du's für uns noch mal 'n bisschen klargestellt hast.",{"text":45188,"start":2981,"end":3133},"Du hast ja grad gemeint, dass Du als Journalistin ja auch immer zwischen verschiedenen Themen und irgendwie trotzdem das Gefühl, wenn ich mir auch grade die Folgen bei euch beim KI Podcast anschaue, dass Du 'n sehr technischen Blick auf die Dinge hast so und auf jeden Fall da eine technische Brille einnimmst.",{"text":45190,"start":3133,"end":3180},"Und Du warst ja auch bei Amazon, worüber wir dann auch gleich noch mal 'n bisschen sprechen werden.",113,{"sentences":45193,"speaker":157,"num_words":45202,"start":3184,"end":3406},[45194,45196,45198,45200,45201],{"text":45195,"start":3184,"end":3243},"Weil typischerweise ist es so beim CTO Special, fangen wir an zu fragen, was war denn dein erster Kontakt mit Technologie?",{"text":45197,"start":3247,"end":3363},"Aber vielleicht bevor Du die Frage so beantwortest, würdest Du dich denn erst mal selbst so als als Techy bezeichnen und gerne in dem Zuge dann auch mal beantworten so, wie wie ist dein deine Beziehung, dein Erstkontakt zu Technologie gewesen?",{"text":45199,"start":3363,"end":3397},"Und war dir klar, dass Du mal Journalistin für den Tech Bereich bist?",{"text":3404,"start":3397,"end":3402},{"text":1017,"start":3402,"end":3406},77,{"sentences":45204,"speaker":36,"num_words":45215,"start":3406,"end":3773},[45205,45207,45209,45211,45213],{"text":45206,"start":3406,"end":3473},"musste auch 'n bisschen schmunzeln, als Du son Poster Syndrom angesprochen hast im Intro, weil das ist also ist was, was ich total kenne.",{"text":45208,"start":3476,"end":3548},"Ich glaub, ich hab das mittlerweile 'n bisschen abgelegt, aber ich hab mich ich hab mich ganz lange, glaub ich, nicht getraut, mich als Techy zu bezeichnen, ne.",{"text":45210,"start":3548,"end":3599},"Weil ich war Journalistin und ich hab eine Journalismusausbildung gemacht und ich habe Amerikanistik und Kommunikation studiert.",{"text":45212,"start":3599,"end":3746},"Also ich glaub, ich ich frag mich jetzt immer, warum ich nicht eigentlich schon Computer Science studiert hab, weil ich erinner mich schon, dass ich mit 11 oder 12 Mal 'n Buch in der Stadtbücherei ausgeliehen hab über Netzscape und das auch total cool fand dann, da irgendwie so HTML zu lernen.",{"text":45214,"start":3746,"end":3773},"Und also ich hab mich immer für Technik interessiert.",130,{"sentences":45217,"speaker":36,"num_words":1449,"start":3777,"end":4109},[45218,45220,45222,45224,45226],{"text":45219,"start":3777,"end":3920},"Aber ich bin eine Quereinsteigerin und ich würde mich auch immer noch nicht als Programmiererin oder so bezeichnen, weil mir da, glaub ich, die Grundlagen oder ja, weil ich son bisschen das Gefühl hab, das Grundlagenwissen, also das studierte, das fehlt mir, obwohl ich natürlich jetzt viele Projekte in dem Bereich gemacht hab.",{"text":45221,"start":3920,"end":3948},"Ich bin zur Technologie gekommen, glaub ich, also auch auch beruflich.",{"text":45223,"start":3952,"end":4004},"Also das ist ja mein großes Glück jetzt, dass jetzt KI mein Expertengebiet sozusagen ist, was total Konjunktur hat.",{"text":45225,"start":4007,"end":4046},"Aber ich bin da, weil ich eigentlich totaler Sci Fi Nerd bin und war.",{"text":45227,"start":4049,"end":4109},"Und ich, also ich werd das öfter gefragt, was so der Moment ist, wo ich dann angefangen hab, mich für KI zu interessieren.",{"sentences":45229,"speaker":36,"num_words":45240,"start":4109,"end":4347},[45230,45232,45234,45236,45238],{"text":45231,"start":4109,"end":4127},"Und ich weiß 2 Momente noch.",{"text":45233,"start":4130,"end":4242},"Das eine ist, dass ich Iron Man 1 gesehen hab, also den, ne, den Film über Tony Stark, der halt sonen coolen Personal AI Bot hat, Jarvis, der alles für ihn macht und einfach halt megahilfrei ist.",{"text":45235,"start":4244,"end":4251},"Das fand ich cool.",{"text":45237,"start":4254,"end":4306},"Das andere war 'n Reddit Post über eine Person, die gesagt hat, bei ihr in der Arbeit hat jemand aufgehört.",{"text":45239,"start":4310,"end":4347},"Und die haben dann quasi geguckt, was hat die Person eigentlich den ganzen Tag gemacht?",82,{"sentences":45242,"speaker":36,"num_words":45247,"start":4351,"end":4439},[45243,45245],{"text":45244,"start":4351,"end":4406},"Und haben dann einfach lauter so Skripte gefunden und quasi festgestellt, der Mensch hat überhaupt nicht gearbeitet, sondern einfach alles automatisiert.",{"text":45246,"start":4406,"end":4439},"Und es war halt also ne Jahre vor den aktuellen Kaffee.",32,{"sentences":45249,"speaker":157,"num_words":45258,"start":4439,"end":4588},[45250,45252,45254,45256],{"text":45251,"start":4439,"end":4452},"Das war dieses Kaffeemaschinen.",{"text":45253,"start":4452,"end":4480},"Der ist mir auch noch in Erinnerung geblieben.",{"text":45255,"start":4480,"end":4535},"Das war das Kaffeemaschinenbeispiel, ne, wo er dann per Skript dann gesagt hat, so jetzt Kaffeemaschine Stopp.",{"text":45257,"start":4535,"end":4588},"Und sobald er da ist von der Zeit, er hat seinen Weg gemessen vom Arbeitsplatz hin zur Kaffeemaschine und",48,{"sentences":45260,"speaker":36,"num_words":36,"start":4591,"end":4596},[45261],{"text":45262,"start":4591,"end":4596},"Genau das.",{"sentences":45264,"speaker":157,"num_words":45268,"start":4601,"end":4614},[45265,45266],{"text":4605,"start":4601,"end":4602},{"text":45267,"start":4607,"end":4614},"Der Genau das.",4,{"sentences":45270,"speaker":36,"num_words":45281,"start":4617,"end":4883},[45271,45273,45275,45277,45279],{"text":45272,"start":4617,"end":4663},"Ich glaub, es gab dann auch, Du konntest ja doch teilweise die Skripte dann runterladen und so was.",{"text":45274,"start":4663,"end":4684},"Und es war auch, ja, keine Ahnung.",{"text":45276,"start":4684,"end":4736},"Wenn er spät in der Arbeit war, dann wurde automatisch eine Mail an Chef geschickt mit 'ner Krankmeldung.",{"text":45278,"start":4736,"end":4750},"Es war einfach alles automatisiert.",{"text":45280,"start":4752,"end":4883},"Und das fand ich einfach so nice, den Gedanken, also auch auch ohne zu wissen, dass ich da mal beruflich hingehen würde, aber ich dachte, egal was ich mach, ich möchte diese Person sein, die dann einfach bei der Arbeit sitzt und Youtube Videos guckt und und nicht wirklich arbeitet.",98,{"sentences":45283,"speaker":36,"num_words":45288,"start":114,"end":5020},[45284,45286],{"text":45285,"start":114,"end":4987},"Und das ist nicht aufgegangen, weil ich jetzt, was auch 'n Glücksfall ist, aber weil ich jetzt extrem viel Arbeit hab und und auch immer immer wieder dann doch die Bereiche der Arbeit finde, die sich nicht so leicht automatisieren lassen.",{"text":45287,"start":4990,"end":5020},"Aber da kommt, glaub ich, mein mein ursprüngliches Interesse her für Technologie.",53,{"sentences":45290,"speaker":137,"num_words":45258,"start":5023,"end":5151},[45291],{"text":45292,"start":5023,"end":5151},"Ja, jetzt als als Coder trotzdem die Frage, wenn Du sagst, Du würdest dich noch nicht als Programmierin bezeichnen, heißt aber, dass Du schon auch viel Kontakt damit hast und das auch in deinen Projekten viel machst und auch viel gut liest und schreibst und dich damit beschäftigst?",{"sentences":45294,"speaker":36,"num_words":45240,"start":5155,"end":5380},[45295,45296,45298,45300,45302],{"text":5159,"start":5155,"end":5156},{"text":45297,"start":5161,"end":5184},"Also ich hatte bei Amazon schon teilweise ziemlich technische Berufe.",{"text":45299,"start":5184,"end":5222},"Und da würd ich sagen, da hab ich auch einfach wirklich viel über die Technologie gelernt.",{"text":45301,"start":5225,"end":5326},"Ich hab mein Imposter Syndrom dann irgendwann abgelegt, nachdem der Chat GPT Hype so groß wurde und dann ich einfach gemerkt hab, jeder auf LinkedIn hat irgendwelche KI Takes und die sind alle falsch.",{"text":45303,"start":5329,"end":5380},"Und ich hatte halt ich hatte halt mich Jahre davor, bevor es quasi auf die Art trendy wurde, mit KI beschäftigt.",{"sentences":45305,"speaker":36,"num_words":45316,"start":5380,"end":5782},[45306,45308,45310,45312,45314],{"text":45307,"start":5380,"end":5425},"Ich hab auch schon meinen meine eigenen neuronalen Netzwerke trainiert und so, ne, also kleine Sachen gemacht.",{"text":45309,"start":5425,"end":5550},"Bin jetzt nicht irgendwie eine versierte Machine Learning Engineer, aber ich hab schon auch mal Code geschrieben und auch mal programmierte Projekte gelauncht und eben bei Amazon viel als Produktmanagerin mit den Techies gemeinsam dran gearbeitet, wie wie technologische Produkte gut werden.",{"text":45311,"start":5553,"end":5606},"Genau und das war, also ja, hätte früher halt mich nie getraut, mich als als Programmiererin zu bezeichnen, auch nicht als KI Expertin.",{"text":45313,"start":5609,"end":5743},"Aber als dann irgendwie jeder Andreas von überall plötzlich auf LinkedIn einfach so dumme Takes gepostet hat, da hab ich gedacht, nee, Moment, auf LinkedIn einfach so dumme Takes gepostet hat, da hab ich gedacht, nee, Moment mal, ich versteh eigentlich schon wirklich viel mehr über auch die technologischen Grundlagen als diese Leute.",{"text":45315,"start":5747,"end":5782},"Und das ist ja auch mit meiner Aufgabe als Journalistin, komplexe Sachen zu erklären.",149,{"sentences":45318,"speaker":36,"num_words":45325,"start":5782,"end":5935},[45319,45321,45322,45324],{"text":45320,"start":5782,"end":5846},"Und dann hab ich eben angefangen, auch, ne, auch selber mehr dazu zu publizieren, mehr Postings zu machen, die schon auch quasi die Technologie erklären.",{"text":5851,"start":5846,"end":5849},{"text":45323,"start":5849,"end":5889},"Und dann hab ich einfach irgendwann mich getraut, mich auch als KI Expertin zu bezeichnen, ja.",{"text":45323,"start":5889,"end":5935},58,{"sentences":45327,"speaker":157,"num_words":45337,"start":5938,"end":6190},[45328,45329,45331,45333,45335],{"text":5941,"start":5938,"end":5939},{"text":45330,"start":5939,"end":6030},"Ja, ich mein, wir werden auch gleich noch mal drauf, Du hast ja auch schon gemeint zu dem Zeitpunkt, als dann ChatGPT groß wurde, als auf einmal jeder zu dem Thema gesprochen hat.",{"text":45332,"start":6030,"end":6079},"Und Du hast dich ja schon weiter vor damit beschäftigt, wann so da der erste professionelle Kontakt damit war.",{"text":45334,"start":6079,"end":6127},"Da können wir ja gleich noch drauf kommen, wenn wir jetzt noch mal den Werdegang son bisschen chronologisch durchgehen.",{"text":45336,"start":6127,"end":6190},"Du hast ja auch schon gemeint, Du warst bei Amazon, vielleicht kannst Du uns erzählen, Du kannst grad irgendwie, warst bei deinem Studium so.",96,{"sentences":45339,"speaker":157,"num_words":45350,"start":6190,"end":6434},[45340,45342,45344,45346,45348],{"text":45341,"start":6190,"end":6278},"Wie war denn der, wenn wir jetzt mal sagen, also son bisschen aus unserer TechBrille ist ja so, Amazon war irgendwie der der der der typischere Techy Job, den wir alle so kennen.",{"text":45343,"start":6278,"end":6308},"Es gibt einen aus meiner Sicht erst mal davor und danach.",{"text":45345,"start":6308,"end":6370},"Kannst Du uns das davor mal erklären und sagen, wie Du biedern dieser, also in meinem Kopf ist das son Switch an so.",{"text":45347,"start":6370,"end":6404},"Der Rest klingt irgendwie relativ stringenzos, alles so journalistischen Bereich.",{"text":45349,"start":6404,"end":6434},"Und auf einmal wechselt's auf die Tech, auf den Tech Bereich.",88,{"sentences":45352,"speaker":157,"num_words":45357,"start":6434,"end":6530},[45353,45355],{"text":45354,"start":6434,"end":6493},"Also fangen wir ja mal an damit so, was zwischen Studium und Amazon so, was war da und wie kamst Du dann zu Amazon?",{"text":45356,"start":6497,"end":6530},"Ist das, wie es von außen wirkt, wirklich so ein ein Switch gewesen?",37,{"sentences":45359,"speaker":36,"num_words":45369,"start":6530,"end":6690},[45360,45361,45363,45365,45367],{"text":2849,"start":6530,"end":6533},{"text":45362,"start":6533,"end":6552},"Ja, tatsächlich ist es total lustig eigentlich.",{"text":45364,"start":6552,"end":6602},"Da haben mich auch viele Leute aus meinem Umfeld immer immer wieder drauf angesprochen, was das soll oder was das sollte.",{"text":45366,"start":6605,"end":6635},"Ich wusste nicht, dass ich so sehr ins Technische gehen will.",{"text":45368,"start":6638,"end":6690},"Wie gesagt, ich hab mich als Teenie für Journalismus interessiert und hab dann die Journalismusausbildung gemacht an der Journalistenschule in München.",61,{"sentences":45371,"speaker":36,"num_words":1327,"start":6690,"end":6986},[45372,45374,45376,45378,45380],{"text":45373,"start":6690,"end":6727},"Und da war's dann schon 'n bisschen so, dass ich die Techi Projekte übernommen habe.",{"text":45375,"start":6727,"end":6767},"Also wir hatten son Abschlussprojekt mit 'nem Magazin und das Magazin hatte auch eine Webseite.",{"text":45377,"start":6770,"end":6819},"Und da war's für mich total klar, dass ich mich halt dann für den Onlineteil mehr interessiere als für den Printteil.",{"text":45379,"start":6823,"end":6916},"Und wenn wir Datenjournalismuskurse hatten, alles, was halt so in diese technischere Richtung ging, das hab ich einfach gemerkt, das liegt mir total und das interessiert mich auch mehr als die anderen in der Klasse.",{"text":45381,"start":6919,"end":6986},"Und dann ging's darum, dass ich einen Job suchen musste und mir überlegt hab, okay, jetzt werd ich quasi auf den Arbeitsmarkt geworfen, was mach ich?",{"sentences":45383,"speaker":36,"num_words":45394,"start":6986,"end":7152},[45384,45386,45388,45390,45392],{"text":45385,"start":6986,"end":6997},"Was macht mir Spaß?",{"text":45387,"start":6997,"end":7004},"Was kann ich?",{"text":45389,"start":7006,"end":7069},"Und das war tatsächlich 1 1 meiner ersten Projekte, die ich selber gecoodet hab, dass ich mir 'n Chatbot gemacht hab damals in Facebook Messenger.",{"text":45391,"start":7073,"end":7105},"Wobei ich glaub, dass der eigentlich auf auf mehreren Plattformen funktioniert hat.",{"text":45393,"start":7107,"end":7152},"Aber es ging darum, der Plattform so der, aber es ging darum, der Chatbot sollte meinen Lebenslauf erzählen.",62,{"sentences":45396,"speaker":36,"num_words":45407,"start":7152,"end":7412},[45397,45399,45401,45403,45405],{"text":45398,"start":7152,"end":7225},"Also ich wollte das dann halt Recruiter oder meine zukünftigen Chefinnen, dass die dann da fragen können, ah, wo hat Marie Kirk denn 'n Praktikum gemacht?",{"text":45400,"start":7225,"end":7247},"Oder was kann die denn für für Tools?",{"text":45402,"start":7247,"end":7275},"Wie gut ist sie denn in Microsoft Word oder so?",{"text":45404,"start":7278,"end":7348},"Und da, das war 'n Projekt, das war halt so das, was, glaub ich, viele auch von euren Zuhörenden kennen, einfach son typisches Learning by doing Projekt.",{"text":45406,"start":7351,"end":7412},"Hab halt Blogartikel gefunden und irgendwelche Repos, die Leute geteilt haben, wo sie ähnliche Projekte gemacht haben und dann hab ich das halt nachgebastelt.",95,{"sentences":45409,"speaker":36,"num_words":45420,"start":7416,"end":7807},[45410,45412,45414,45416,45418],{"text":45411,"start":7416,"end":7504},"Genau, und dann bin ich zuerst ganz normal in diese typischen Journalismuspraktika gegangen, hab bei der Süddeutschen 'n Praktikum gemacht, das ich, glaub ich, auch durch diesen Chatbot unter anderem bekommen hab.",{"text":45413,"start":7507,"end":7575},"Hab bei der taz 'n Praktikum gemacht und dann auch verlängert danach und noch Elternzeitvertretung und quasi son bisschen bisschen fixer bei der taz gearbeitet.",{"text":45415,"start":7578,"end":7633},"Und in der Zeit hat aber mein damaliger Freund eine Ausschreibung online gefunden für Amazon, nämlich dass Alexa nach Deutschland kommt.",{"text":45417,"start":7636,"end":7704},"Und die suchen jemand, der die deutsche Personality macht und die Witze schreibt und und auch Nachrichten schreibt für, also quasi Content macht für Alexa.",{"text":45419,"start":7706,"end":7807},"Und da hab ich halt gemerkt, okay, das würde mich mega interessieren und das passt total zu dem, weil das halt quasi so das Nachrichten- und Journalismus- und Contentzeug verbindet, was ich gemacht habe, aber halt 'n geiler Chatbot ist.",143,{"sentences":45422,"speaker":36,"num_words":45433,"start":7807,"end":8174},[45423,45425,45427,45429,45431],{"text":45424,"start":7807,"end":7843},"Und also das war damals für mich auch so total verbunden mit dieser Jarvis Vision.",{"text":45426,"start":7846,"end":7897},"Ich glaub, der ursprüngliche Gedanke von von Alexa, von Jeff Bezos ist, glaub ich, Star Trek inspiriert.",{"text":45428,"start":7900,"end":7978},"Er soll so der Star Trek Bordcomputer, aber ich war so, Natürlich will ich da mitarbeiten, wenn wir dann halt son Ding kriegen, was dann in der Wohnung ist.",{"text":45430,"start":7978,"end":8017},"Und dann kann ich halt in den Raum reinkommen und sagen, Computer, mach mir Kaffee.",{"text":45432,"start":8019,"end":8174},"Und da hab ich mich dann beworben und und schon eine Weile drüber nachgedacht, ob das quasi für meine Journalismuskarriere eher schlecht ist, ob ich danach noch mal die Chance hab, in den Journalismus zurückzukommen, wenn ich quasi auf die böse Seite gehe und Und also und auch damals hat man schon viel drüber gehört, was Amazon auch falsch macht.",136,{"sentences":45435,"speaker":36,"num_words":45446,"start":8174,"end":8525},[45436,45438,45440,45442,45444],{"text":45437,"start":8174,"end":8226},"Also da ging's dann noch eher drum, das Sterben der Buchläden und so und ob die da fair agieren.",{"text":45439,"start":8229,"end":8427},"Aber in den Bewerbungsgesprächen, also das Team, für das ich mich da beworben hab, der Chef, mit dem ich da gesprochen hab, das hat mich damals total überzeugt und ich hatte einfach Bock, da mitzuarbeiten und hab hab auch gedacht, das riskier ich jetzt auch, dass ich quasi von der eher linken taz in den Hyperkapitalismus mal wechsle und dann nicht weiß, ob ich da quasi in in diese Ecke des Journalismus noch mal noch mal zurückgelassen werde.",{"text":45441,"start":8430,"end":8455},"Ja, aber also ja, vielleicht sprechen wir noch mehr über Amazon.",{"text":45443,"start":8459,"end":8490},"Ich sag immer, alles, was man hört über das Unternehmen, ist wahr.",{"text":45445,"start":8494,"end":8525},"Es war aber auch eine sehr gute Zeit für mich an an vielen Stellen.",134,{"sentences":45448,"speaker":36,"num_words":45453,"start":8525,"end":8656},[45449,45451],{"text":45450,"start":8525,"end":8570},"Und ich ich bereu's auf keinen Fall, alles, was ich da gemacht hab, was ich da gelernt hab.",{"text":45452,"start":8570,"end":8656},"Ich war über 4 Jahre da und und zuletzt auch in Seattle am Hauptsitz quasi, war für meine Karriere auf jeden Fall super und und auch für mein technisches Verständnis von Dingen.",50,{"sentences":45455,"speaker":157,"num_words":45466,"start":8659,"end":8917},[45456,45458,45460,45462,45464],{"text":45457,"start":8659,"end":8787},"Und vielleicht, bevor wir gleich noch mal auf Amazon zu sprechen kommen, weil definitiv können wir da gern noch mehr drüber reden, auch wieder in der Wechsel zu der eher product Rolle, wo Du ja vorher dann eher, wenn ich verstanden hab, eher inhaltlich unterwegs warst, ne eher am Texten warst.",{"text":45459,"start":8787,"end":8803},"Du hast ja von der taz gesprochen.",{"text":45461,"start":8803,"end":8842},"Du hast ja unter anderem auch die erste KI Kolumne für die taz kreiert.",{"text":45463,"start":8842,"end":8888},"Und da hab ich mich nur gefragt, vielleicht kannst Du uns einerseits als taz noch mal kurz erzählen?",{"text":45465,"start":8888,"end":8917},"Und war das dann die Zeit vor Amazon, wo Du das kreiert hast?",103,{"sentences":45468,"speaker":157,"num_words":187,"start":8917,"end":8944},[45469],{"text":45470,"start":8917,"end":8944},"Also war das dann sozusagen auch dein Erstkontakt so mit KI beruflich?",{"sentences":45472,"speaker":36,"num_words":45483,"start":8947,"end":9306},[45473,45475,45477,45479,45481],{"text":45474,"start":8947,"end":9000},"Nee, also diese die taz Kolumne, das war tatsächlich kurz bevor Chat GPT gelauncht wurde, also das war dann viele Jahre später.",{"text":45476,"start":9003,"end":9038},"Ich erinner mich aber grade dran, ich hab bei der auch schon technische Projekte gemacht.",{"text":45478,"start":9038,"end":9057},"Also ich bin da nie ganz weggekommen von.",{"text":45480,"start":9057,"end":9093},"Ich hab da auch, das war damals in feministischer Twitter Bot zum Weltfrauentag.",{"text":45482,"start":9096,"end":9306},"Das war eigentlich mein erstes großes Programmierprojekt, wo es wirklich auch was ging und wo ich noch weiß, wie ich danach nachts saß und irgend einen Strichpunkt im Javascript nicht gefunden hab und einfach dachte so, fuck, das Ding soll morgen online gehen und ich ich weiß überhaupt nicht, was ich tue, hatt ich massiv im Poster Syndrom, weil ich mir halt irgendwie Javascript so zusammen hab und das also, ne, ich wie gesagt, ich glaub, so lernen viele.",137,{"sentences":45485,"speaker":36,"num_words":45488,"start":9306,"end":9354},[45486],{"text":45487,"start":9306,"end":9354},"Aber damals gab's noch keine keine Chatbots, die ich einfach fragen konnte, sondern ich halt Ja, also haben",18,{"sentences":45490,"speaker":157,"num_words":45268,"start":9354,"end":9366},[45491],{"text":45492,"start":9354,"end":9366},"viele gelernt, ob's heute",{"sentences":45494,"speaker":36,"num_words":36,"start":9366,"end":9371},[45495],{"text":45496,"start":9366,"end":9371},"noch viele",{"sentences":45498,"speaker":157,"num_words":45268,"start":9371,"end":9383},[45499],{"text":45500,"start":9371,"end":9383},"so lernen, die fragen.",{"sentences":45502,"speaker":36,"num_words":45513,"start":9383,"end":9621},[45503,45505,45507,45509,45511],{"text":45504,"start":9383,"end":9401},"Ja, ja, heute ist ganz anders.",{"text":45506,"start":9404,"end":9489},"Nee, aber da hab ich halt, keine Ahnung, die Stack Overflow und was auch immer durchforstet, nach was zur Hölle ist der Fehler, ob irgendjemand das vielleicht zufällig schon mal gelöst hat.",{"text":45508,"start":9491,"end":9548},"Und es ging darum, wir wollten Twitter nach frauenfeindlichen Tweets, Kommentaren durchsuchen und dann quasi, dass der Bot automatisch darauf antwortet.",{"text":45510,"start":9548,"end":9605},"Also wenn dann irgendjemand Schlampe sagt, dass dann halt son Gift kommt, wie er eine Watschen kriegt oder so irgend.",{"text":45512,"start":9605,"end":9621},"Also son ganz kleines Projekt.",84,{"sentences":45515,"speaker":36,"num_words":45520,"start":9623,"end":9731},[45516,45518],{"text":45517,"start":9623,"end":9678},"Ich hab's dann hingekriegt und hab irgendwie den Code zum Laufen gebracht tatsächlich in der in der letzten Nacht vorm Launch.",{"text":45519,"start":9682,"end":9731},"Und dann ging der online 9 Uhr morgens am Weltfrauentag und 9 Uhr 30 war er gesperrt von Twitter.",40,{"sentences":45522,"speaker":137,"num_words":45526,"start":9734,"end":9756},[45523,45525],{"text":45524,"start":9734,"end":9753},"Aber das war die Judith Botlo, oder?",{"text":853,"start":9753,"end":9756},8,{"sentences":45528,"speaker":36,"num_words":45534,"start":9756,"end":9810},[45529,45531,45532],{"text":45530,"start":9756,"end":9762},"ist Genau.",{"text":2849,"start":9765,"end":9766},{"text":45533,"start":9766,"end":9810},"Judith Botlo, das ist find ich son geiler Name, auf den ist 'n Kollege von mir gekommen.",20,{"sentences":45536,"speaker":137,"num_words":45542,"start":9810,"end":9864},[45537,45538,45540],{"text":2849,"start":9810,"end":9814},{"text":45539,"start":9817,"end":9843},"Die hat aber die hat am Ende auch Posts selber.",{"text":45541,"start":9847,"end":9864},"Also der Bot hat selber auch Posts erstellt.",19,{"sentences":45544,"speaker":36,"num_words":45551,"start":9868,"end":9951},[45545,45547,45549],{"text":45546,"start":9868,"end":9873},"Ja, genau.",{"text":45548,"start":9873,"end":9903},"Das war dann unser Plan b, weil also das Antworten Ja.",{"text":45550,"start":9907,"end":9951},"Quasi das Durchsuchen nach frauenfeindlichen Kommentaren, das das das wusste ich schon, dass es quasi eine Grauzone ist",31,{"sentences":45553,"speaker":157,"num_words":45556,"start":9953,"end":9960},[45554],{"text":45555,"start":9953,"end":9960},"in den nach",3,{"sentences":45558,"speaker":36,"num_words":45565,"start":9960,"end":10011},[45559,45561,45563],{"text":45560,"start":9960,"end":9975},"den Tour der Richtlinien.",{"text":45562,"start":9978,"end":10002},"Also Du darfst eigentlich nicht ungefragt automatisiert Leute zuspammen.",{"text":45564,"start":10006,"end":10011},"Eigentlich logisch.",15,{"sentences":45567,"speaker":157,"num_words":137,"start":10014,"end":10015},[45568],{"text":10017,"start":10014,"end":10015},{"sentences":45570,"speaker":36,"num_words":45573,"start":10019,"end":10060},[45571],{"text":45572,"start":10019,"end":10060},"Und also wir haben den Bot ja nicht getagt, sondern wir haben ja nur eine Stichwortsuche gemacht.",17,{"sentences":45575,"speaker":157,"num_words":137,"start":10063,"end":10064},[45576],{"text":10065,"start":10063,"end":10064},{"sentences":45578,"speaker":36,"num_words":45088,"start":10067,"end":10287},[45579,45581,45583,45585,45587],{"text":45580,"start":10067,"end":10111},"Und nachdem er dann gesperrt wurde, haben wir dann halt überlegt, okay, wie können wir den wieder online nehmen?",{"text":45582,"start":10111,"end":10137},"Was ist 'n Plan b, was der machen kann und das.",{"text":45584,"start":10137,"end":10168},"Also es war dann, ja, also auch aus heutiger Sicht auch langweilig.",{"text":45586,"start":10168,"end":10237},"Der hat halt dann irgendwelche feministischen Artikel oder Artikel zum Thema geteilt und ja, und halt nur Leuten geantwortet, die die den Bot getagged haben.",{"text":45588,"start":10237,"end":10287},"Aber also es war für mich auf jeden Fall 'n cooles Projekt, wo ich halt auch gelernt hab und ja.",{"sentences":45590,"speaker":36,"num_words":45601,"start":10287,"end":10570},[45591,45593,45595,45597,45599],{"text":45592,"start":10287,"end":10351},"Und halt auch mal einfach so diese Erfahrung gemacht hab, dass man in der Nacht Mate Tee trinkt und einfach denkt, das klappt nicht.",{"text":45594,"start":10351,"end":10392},"Und dann kriegt man's aber hin und der Code funktioniert am Ende und man kann's online nehmen.",{"text":45596,"start":10392,"end":10433},"Und alles, was danach schiefgegangen ist, war ja nicht mein Code, sondern das waren die Twitterrichtlinien.",{"text":45598,"start":10437,"end":10531},"Und dann, das war eigentlich von der Story her auch gar nicht so schlecht, weil dann haben wir auch darüber berichtet und halt dann die Metastory erzählt, wie doof das eigentlich ist, was Twitter alles zulässt.",{"text":45600,"start":10531,"end":10570},"Also dass Du halt einfach Leute frauenfeindlich beleidigen darfst den ganzen Tag und wirst nicht gesperrt.",109,{"sentences":45603,"speaker":36,"num_words":45608,"start":10570,"end":10660},[45604,45606],{"text":45605,"start":10570,"end":10628},"Aber wenn halt 'n 'n Bot das kritisiert, der wird dann gesperrt Und das kriegen sie dann plötzlich hin, dass sie das bemerkten.",{"text":45607,"start":10631,"end":10660},"Und also ja, diese Diskussion zu führen, hat das total gereicht.",34,{"sentences":45610,"speaker":137,"num_words":45325,"start":10663,"end":10802},[45611,45613,45615],{"text":45612,"start":10663,"end":10720},"Ich mein, ich weiß, was Du meinst, wenn Du sagst, aus heutiger Sicht klingt das langweilig, aber damals war, also find ich das schon spannend.",{"text":45614,"start":10720,"end":10780},"Ich mein, mit den Möglichkeiten heute wirkt das irgendwie so einfach, son Bot zu erstellen, aber 2017 waren die Möglichkeiten ja noch ganz anders.",{"text":45616,"start":10780,"end":10802},"Also ich find das schon 'n spannendes technisches Projekt.",{"sentences":45618,"speaker":36,"num_words":39,"start":10804,"end":11082},[45619,45620,45622,45624,45626],{"text":2849,"start":10804,"end":10805},{"text":45621,"start":10805,"end":10860},"Und ich fand's total total cool, dass die taz das mitgemacht hat, weil die sind ja auch in Risiko eingegangen damit.",{"text":45623,"start":10863,"end":11006},"Und das ist auch der Grund meiner Erfahrung damals, dass ich dann viele Jahre später gesagt hab, okay, wir wollen eine quasi nichtmenschliche Kolumnist*in in eine deutsche Printzeitung bringen, also auch 'n für damals total gewagtes Projekt, zu sagen, wir schreiben komplett automatisiert, wir trauen uns auch in diese Diskussionen rein.",{"text":45625,"start":11010,"end":11025},"Also werden da Arbeitsplätze gefährdet?",{"text":45627,"start":11025,"end":11082},"Wie wie riskant ist das, also dass das wirklich eine Maschine da schreibt und und nicht 'n Mensch diesen Kolumnen Platz kriegt.",{"sentences":45629,"speaker":36,"num_words":45640,"start":11082,"end":11324},[45630,45632,45634,45636,45638],{"text":45631,"start":11082,"end":11122},"Und da wusste ich, also die taz wird sich das trauen oder hab ich hab ich gehofft.",{"text":45633,"start":11122,"end":11178},"Und von von anderen deutschen Printzeitungen hab ich dann teilweise gar nicht gefragt, weil ich schon wusste, das ist denen denen zu riskant.",{"text":45635,"start":11178,"end":11229},"Und die taz traut sich immer immer wieder in so, ja, in so die Mitte der Debatte irgendwie auch rein.",{"text":45637,"start":11229,"end":11294},"Und die machen auch Sachen, wo dann die halbe Redaktion eben nicht dahintersteht und wo sie dann auch in Redaktionssitzungen sich total zerfetzen darüber.",{"text":45639,"start":11297,"end":11324},"Aber darum geht's halt, die Vielfalt der der Meinungen so.",94,{"sentences":45642,"speaker":157,"num_words":45653,"start":11327,"end":11639},[45643,45645,45647,45649,45651],{"text":45644,"start":11327,"end":11377},"Aber lasst doch gerne noch mal kurz dann da auf die Kolumne eingehen, wenn wir's dann dann noch mal ansprechen.",{"text":45646,"start":11377,"end":11445},"Also wenn ich's noch mal in in Kontext setze, also wenn Du wenn wir über Judith Botler grade gesprochen haben, das war die taz Zeit vor Amazon.",{"text":45648,"start":11447,"end":11496},"Die Kolumne war dann, geh ich mal davon aus, das ist ja vorhin schon gemeint, nach Amazon, also kurz bevor ChatGPT.",{"text":45650,"start":11500,"end":11598},"Vielleicht kannst Du einfach noch mal kurz dazu erzählen, wie das funktioniert hat, weil das war ja damals jetzt nicht so, dass ihr die Open AI API einfach angegangen seid, wahrscheinlich gesagt habt, hier verfass mal 'n Text so.",{"text":45652,"start":11598,"end":11639},"Wie hat denn wie wie hat das funktioniert, diese KI Kolumne und wie wie wie kamst Du drauf?",125,{"sentences":45655,"speaker":36,"num_words":45601,"start":11642,"end":11949},[45656,45658,45660,45662,45664],{"text":45657,"start":11642,"end":11687},"Ich kam drauf, weil ich tatsächlich mit OpenAis, GPT 3, muss das gewesen sein, rumgespielt hab.",{"text":45659,"start":11687,"end":11719},"2021, glaub ich, oder 2020 hat das angefangen, 2020 2021.",{"text":45661,"start":11723,"end":11809},"Ich weiß nicht, ob ihr das damals auch mitbekommen habt, aber halt in so bestimmten Kreisen wusste man halt, es gibt jetzt dann, ich hatte sogar mit GPT-zwei Punkt 5 oder so was angefangen.",{"text":45663,"start":11809,"end":11854},"Ich bin mir nicht mehr ganz sicher, aber quasi so sehr primitive Versionen von Textvervollständigung.",{"text":45665,"start":11858,"end":11949},"Und die hatten da damals schon eine API, glaub ich, oder zumindest hatten sie einen Playground, wo man kein Chat Interface hatte, aber wo man halt einfach Texte reinschreiben konnte, die wurden dann vervollständigt.",{"sentences":45667,"speaker":36,"num_words":1415,"start":11952,"end":12252},[45668,45670,45672,45674,45676],{"text":45669,"start":11952,"end":11978},"Und die war natürlich total schlecht, aber dadurch eigentlich künstlerisch interessant.",{"text":45671,"start":11981,"end":12118},"Und es war schon damals so, ich erinner mich, da war ich nämlich grade in Seattle, also muss es während der Pandemie auch gewesen sein, während meiner Amazon Zeit in Seattle, dass die da halt irgendwie eine neue Version dann rausgebracht haben, vielleicht da dann das Da Vinci Modell oder keine Ahnung, was genau es war.",{"text":45673,"start":12120,"end":12184},"Und ich dann halt gemerkt hab so, oh krass, das ist so viel besser als alles, was ich halt damals mit meinen ersten neuronalen Netzwerken gemacht hab.",{"text":45675,"start":12186,"end":12219},"Und der also der der bringt plötzlich ja komplette Sätze raus.",{"text":45677,"start":12219,"end":12252},"Also es ist nicht Kauderwelsch, sondern das ist eine Maschine, die erstellt Text.",{"sentences":45679,"speaker":36,"num_words":1415,"start":12255,"end":12557},[45680,45682,45684,45686,45688],{"text":45681,"start":12255,"end":12313},"Und die kann auch 300, 400 Zeichen Text erstellen, der vielleicht nicht komplett kohärent ist, aber der zumindest nicht voller Fehler ist.",{"text":45683,"start":12315,"end":12420},"Und das war dann so die Zeit, da bin ich dann auf 'n paar Freunde von mir zugegangen, mit denen wir die gegründet haben damals, von denen ich einfach wusste, die interessieren sich auch so in diesem Bereich für einfach für so künstlerische Techprojekte.",{"text":45685,"start":12424,"end":12454},"Und denen hab ich dann gesagt, hey, ich glaub, die Zeit ist reif.",{"text":45687,"start":12454,"end":12492},"Ich glaub, wir müssen jetzt eigentlich mal gucken, kriegen wir das irgendwie in eine Zeitung?",{"text":45689,"start":12492,"end":12557},"Und wir fanden den Gedanken halt total lustig, dass auch die erste nichtmenschliche Entität quasi eine einen Text veröffentlicht, bevor die Printzeitung gestorben ist.",{"sentences":45691,"speaker":36,"num_words":45694,"start":12557,"end":12579},[45692],{"text":45693,"start":12557,"end":12579},"Also so auch auch so als Sci Fi Szenario.",9,{"sentences":45696,"speaker":157,"num_words":45556,"start":12582,"end":12591},[45697,45698],{"text":10065,"start":12582,"end":12583},{"text":45699,"start":12586,"end":12591},"Genau, und",{"sentences":45701,"speaker":36,"num_words":45711,"start":12591,"end":12838},[45702,45704,45706,45707,45709],{"text":45703,"start":12591,"end":12616},"dann hab ich einfach da da quasi angefangen, Texte zu generieren.",{"text":45705,"start":12616,"end":12675},"Das war alles Open in als a irgend, da gibt's son Freaky Projekt von Elon Musk und anderen Leuten.",{"text":2849,"start":12679,"end":12680},{"text":45708,"start":12680,"end":12749},"Und wir noch keine Ahnung hatten, dass die dann sich so drehen und nicht nicht wirklich sein wollen und nicht wirklich das Wohl der Menschheit sich so sehr interessieren.",{"text":45710,"start":12751,"end":12838},"Aber die Texte waren dann total faszinierend, weil ich hab dann halt irgendwie versucht, so zu prompten, also quasi den Text anfangen immer zu schreiben, Du bist eine Kolumnistin in 1 Printzeitung.",92,{"sentences":45713,"speaker":36,"num_words":45724,"start":12842,"end":13126},[45714,45716,45718,45720,45722],{"text":45715,"start":12842,"end":12874},"Du schreibst dadrüber, wie's halt ist, eine KI zu sein und zu schreiben.",{"text":45717,"start":12874,"end":12951},"Und dann mussten wir auch immer noch den Text anfangen mit, ich glaub, der Prompt ging immer bis liebe Leserinnen und Leser, es damals die Art zu prompt war.",{"text":45719,"start":12951,"end":13037},"Du hattest ja nicht dieses Post Training, dass Du so sehr auf auf trainierst, sondern Du musstest quasi einen Textanfang schreiben, der plausibel ist und die Maschine konnte die dann fortführen.",{"text":45721,"start":13040,"end":13094},"Und danach hat die dann plötzlich so geile Sachen rausgehauen und teilweise halt komplett, weil's auch noch nicht so gefiltert war damals.",{"text":45723,"start":13094,"end":13126},"Also da war noch viel mehr einfach halt auch so Internetraage drin.",107,{"sentences":45726,"speaker":36,"num_words":45737,"start":13129,"end":13549},[45727,45729,45731,45733,45735],{"text":45728,"start":13129,"end":13274},"Und da hat die ja plötzlich Kolumnen rausgehauen, über wie scheiße der Herbst ist und einfach halt dann noch so Ausrufezeichen 1 1 1 und und die ganzen scheiß Menschen mit ihren blöden Fahrrädern und rutschen aufm feuchten Laub aus und was seid ihr eigentlich, was seid ihr eigentlich für biologische Opfer?",{"text":45730,"start":13274,"end":13296},"Ich weiß jetzt nicht mehr, die genauen Zitate.",{"text":45732,"start":13299,"end":13314},"Aber es waren megareninteressante Texte damals.",{"text":45734,"start":13314,"end":13476},"Und das ist eigentlich dann was, was wir dann total schade fanden, weil wir die Entwicklung mitgemacht haben, als also kurz nachdem wir den ersten Text gelauncht haben, kam dann halt Chat GPT raus und dann ging sie in den nächsten Monaten sehr, sehr schnell, dass sie die Modelle auch verbessert haben und viel besser gefiltert haben und das alles kommerziell verträglicher gemacht haben.",{"text":45736,"start":13476,"end":13549},"Und dann wurde es für uns über Zeit immer schwieriger, da interessante Texte rauszubringen, weil halt die KIs immer freundlicher und normaler und und langweiliger wurden, ja.",157,{"sentences":45739,"speaker":36,"num_words":45750,"start":13549,"end":13813},[45740,45742,45744,45746,45748],{"text":45741,"start":13549,"end":13639},"Aber ganz am Anfang, da gab's noch einen Moment, auch son paar Wochen vorm Launch, eine, gibt's das in jedem Programmierprojekt, müsst ihr mir eigentlich sagen, dass man dann denkt so, fuck, was haben wir gemacht?",{"text":45743,"start":13639,"end":13652},"Es ist wird alles scheitern.",{"text":45745,"start":13655,"end":13699},"Wir haben irgendwann 'n paar Wochen vor Launch dann mal gefragt, Moment mal, wie lang soll diese Kolumne eigentlich werden?",{"text":45747,"start":13702,"end":13753},"Und dann hat die taz gesagt, ja, auf der Seite ist Platz für 3000 Zeichen, also die müsst ihr schon voll machen.",{"text":45749,"start":13757,"end":13813},"Und dann haben wir gemerkt so, oh, Kacke, die ganzen Demotexte, die wir generieren, die sind halt 300 Zeichen lang oder 400.",105,{"sentences":45752,"speaker":36,"num_words":45763,"start":13813,"end":14144},[45753,45755,45757,45759,45761],{"text":45754,"start":13813,"end":13829},"Und danach bricht's halt total schnell zusammen.",{"text":45756,"start":13832,"end":13864},"Und dann mussten wir schon in in dem Sinne 'n bisschen was drum rumbasteln.",{"text":45758,"start":13868,"end":13890},"Wir wollten, dass kein Mensch den Text wirklich anfasst.",{"text":45760,"start":13894,"end":14078},"Also wir haben schon gesagt, wir werden mehrere Texte generieren und den besten auswählen, aber wir wollten, dass es wirklich 'n echter KI Text ist, nicht diese wie diese ganzen, wir haben 'ner Maschine alle Harry Potter Bände zum Lesen gegeben und das generiert sie, die damals rumging, wo man dann einfach so krass gemerkt hat, da hat einfach 'n Mensch wirklich so jeden Satz kuratiert und die lustigsten Sachen ausgewählt und so.",{"text":45762,"start":14080,"end":14144},"Und deswegen haben wir da quasi 'n Robert in unserem Team, der der das gut konnte, der hat da quasi sone kleine Reprompt Maschine gebaut.",128,{"sentences":45765,"speaker":36,"num_words":45369,"start":14144,"end":14302},[45766,45768,45770,45772],{"text":45767,"start":14144,"end":14247},"Also dass wir quasi dann immer das Ende von dem, was bisher generiert wurden, automatisch wieder oben reingeben und die Maschine so dazu bringen, halt immer wieder die nächsten 300 Zeichen Text zu zu generieren, obwohl halt das Kontextfenster noch total klein war.",{"text":45769,"start":14247,"end":14253},"Ah ja.",{"text":45771,"start":14256,"end":14297},"Und so hatten wir da quasi son System drum rum, die die Open AI API.",{"text":2849,"start":14301,"end":14302},{"sentences":45774,"speaker":157,"num_words":45202,"start":14304,"end":14497},[45775,45777,45779,45781,45783],{"text":45776,"start":14304,"end":14309},"Ja, cool.",{"text":45778,"start":14309,"end":14344},"Ja, also für deine Frage mit kurz davor son Skala, kannst Du so beantworten.",{"text":45780,"start":14344,"end":14415},"Ich glaub, der Unterschied bei uns ist, wir wissen, dass die erste Version Murks ist, aber wir haben ja auch Zeit, einfach durch Updates das Ganze zu verändern.",{"text":45782,"start":14415,"end":14477},"Und die erste Version wird irgendwann keiner mehr sehen im Vergleich zu 'ner Kolumne, wo halt jeder Beitrag erst mal da ist für alle Ewigkeiten.",{"text":45784,"start":14477,"end":14497},"Also der erste Wurf muss vielleicht besser sein.",{"sentences":45786,"speaker":157,"num_words":45792,"start":14497,"end":14548},[45787,45789,45790],{"text":45788,"start":14497,"end":14531},"Ich glaub, deswegen haben wir dieses, wir wissen einfach, der erste Wurf ist nicht gut.",{"text":2849,"start":14531,"end":14534},{"text":45791,"start":14534,"end":14548},"Wir haben Zeit, das zu verbessern.",22,{"sentences":45794,"speaker":36,"num_words":45801,"start":14551,"end":14788},[45795,45797,45799],{"text":45796,"start":14551,"end":14636},"Vielleicht ist das das, was halt an so Projekte von so quasi einfach Scharlatan wie uns auszeichnen, die wir halt dann nicht professionell coden, sondern halt nur für für Fun Projekte.",{"text":45798,"start":14640,"end":14716},"Dass wir halt diese Erfahrung nicht haben und nicht wissen, ah okay, wir müssen echt 'n paar Wochen früher anfangen und uns Zeit nehmen für eine Version 0, die dann kacke sein darf.",{"text":45800,"start":14716,"end":14788},"Sondern dass wir einfach son bisschen dachten, so ja, läuft und und dann 'n paar Wochen vorm vorm Launch merken, hoppla, jetzt wird die Zeit knapp.",90,{"sentences":45803,"speaker":157,"num_words":45812,"start":14791,"end":14942},[45804,45806,45808,45810],{"text":45805,"start":14791,"end":14834},"Oder wir sind 'n bisschen frecher, weil wir geben Version 0 ja auch Leuten in die Hand.",{"text":45807,"start":14834,"end":14860},"Ist ja nicht so, dass wir das im Geheimen tun.",{"text":45809,"start":14863,"end":14886},"Wir wir wir exerzieren am lebenden Objekt so.",{"text":45811,"start":14886,"end":14942},"Aber wir können's halt einfach irgendwann wieder runter dem sagen, hier ist was Besseres, so vergiss, was Du vorher gesehen hast.",56,{"sentences":45814,"speaker":36,"num_words":45268,"start":14942,"end":14953},[45815,45816],{"text":2849,"start":14942,"end":14944},{"text":45817,"start":14947,"end":14953},"Hab ich grad,",{"sentences":45819,"speaker":137,"num_words":45826,"start":14953,"end":15042},[45820,45822,45824],{"text":45821,"start":14953,"end":14977},"das ist 'n sehr normaler Prozess in der Software.",{"text":45823,"start":14977,"end":15023},"Und ich, also ihr habt ja dann am Ende scheinbar auch 'n gutes Ergebnis gehabt zum Launch, oder?",{"text":45825,"start":15023,"end":15042},"Also warst Du dann zufrieden, als es losging?",35,{"sentences":45828,"speaker":36,"num_words":45833,"start":15045,"end":15076},[45829,45831],{"text":45830,"start":15045,"end":15067},"Ja, ja, doch, das hat dann schon geklappt.",{"text":45832,"start":15067,"end":15076},"Es war, ja.",11,{"sentences":45835,"speaker":137,"num_words":45840,"start":15079,"end":15153},[45836,45838],{"text":45837,"start":15079,"end":15098},"Findet man die Kolumnen denn noch online?",{"text":45839,"start":15098,"end":15153},"Weil ich glaube, Du hast nicht nur mir, sondern sehr vielen Leuten das gemacht, das mal zu lesen, was so damals da rauskam.",30,{"sentences":45842,"speaker":36,"num_words":45853,"start":15157,"end":15367},[45843,45845,45847,45849,45851],{"text":45844,"start":15157,"end":15169},"Ja, man findet die alle online.",{"text":45846,"start":15169,"end":15207},"Ich kann euch den Link schicken, könnt ihr den in den Shownotes verlinken.",{"text":45848,"start":15211,"end":15234},"Genau und wir haben auch alles andere drumherum öffentlich gemacht.",{"text":45850,"start":15234,"end":15275},"Also wir haben auch, ich glaub, unser Reaper müsste auch noch online sein, also unser ganzer Code.",{"text":45852,"start":15275,"end":15367},"Wir haben teilweise, glaub ich, auch nicht alle, aber wir haben, glaub ich, auch offengelegt, wie viele Texte wir jeweils generiert haben für die jeweilige Ausgabe, aus wie vielen Texten wir den ausgewählt haben.",80,{"sentences":45855,"speaker":36,"num_words":45865,"start":15367,"end":15504},[45856,45857,45859,45861,45863],{"text":5851,"start":15367,"end":15370},{"text":45858,"start":15370,"end":15393},"Also wir wollten, das darum ging's auch bei dem Projekt.",{"text":45860,"start":15393,"end":15411},"Wir wollten einfach eine Konversation darüber anstoßen.",{"text":45862,"start":15411,"end":15463},"Und wir wollten das halt auch nont tech gies die Möglichkeit haben, dann zu verstehen, Moment mal, was passiert da?",{"text":45864,"start":15463,"end":15504},"Und was heißt das, wenn eine KI in Anführungszeichen halt in der in der Zeitung schreibt?",54,{"sentences":45867,"speaker":36,"num_words":45433,"start":15504,"end":15854},[45868,45870,45872,45874],{"text":45869,"start":15504,"end":15649},"Und dass die eben, das wird ja zwar eine Persönlichkeit geben und es will eine Story darüber erzählen, wer diese Persona ist, Aber dass man halt auch versteht, dass das nicht wirklich was ist, was Gefühle hat und so, sondern dass es halt, was ist, woran Menschen arbeiten und Menschen dann diese diese Story darum stricken.",{"text":45871,"start":15649,"end":15763},"Und deswegen haben wir ziemlich viel online gestellt dann auch in Hintergrundartikeln auf quasi verschiedenen Leveln, damit die die es halt wirklich zum ersten Mal sehen, weil sie eine Printzeitung in der Hand haben, damit die dann nicht abgeschreckt sind von zu viel technischem Jargon.",{"text":45873,"start":15767,"end":15842},"Aber halt, dass die Leute, die sich technisch dann dafür interessieren, dass die dann auch möglichst möglichst tief ins Rabbit Hall reingehen können und sehen können, wie wir's gemacht haben.",{"text":45875,"start":15845,"end":15854},"Ja, könnt ihr gerne verlinken.",{"sentences":45877,"speaker":157,"num_words":45887,"start":15856,"end":16024},[45878,45879,45881,45883,45885],{"text":5941,"start":15856,"end":15857},{"text":45880,"start":15860,"end":15892},"Vielleicht lass uns gerne jetzt noch mal auf die Zeit von Amthor zu gehen.",{"text":45882,"start":15892,"end":15915},"Wir haben ja jetzt ja grade was davor und danach.",{"text":45884,"start":15915,"end":15984},"Also 2017 waren wir noch an den Abenden, wo Du nach 'nem Semikolon gesucht hast, was in deinem JavaScript fehlt, hin zu 2021 kurz vor ChatGPT.",{"text":45886,"start":15984,"end":16024},"Also Du meintest ja, ich hab dann auch schon mal neuronale Netzwerke trainiert gehabt in der Zeit.",68,{"sentences":45889,"speaker":157,"num_words":45763,"start":16024,"end":16326},[45890,45892,45894,45896],{"text":45891,"start":16024,"end":16135},"Das heißt, es gab ja eine Entwicklung von Semikolon hinzu, Du beschäftigst dich mit neuronalen Netzwerken Und das ist ja genau diese Zeit hin zu dann dieser Kolumne, wo eigentlich Amazon lag, also genau 2017 bei der taz, bist dann ein, mit 22 bei Amazon.",{"text":45893,"start":16135,"end":16245},"Kannst Du uns noch mal 'n bisschen was zu der Story erzählen, wie Du dann von dem, Du gehst zu Amazon und bist dafür eingestiegen, Texte für Alexa, Content für Alexa zu generieren, hin zu, Du bist Productmanager und dann ja eher eine technische Rolle bei Amazon so.",{"text":45895,"start":16245,"end":16260},"Also wie wie war diese Zeit da?",{"text":45897,"start":16260,"end":16326},"Und wo kam dann auch dieser Punkt, dass Du dich mit neuronalen Netzwerken beschäftigt hast, was ja auch wenn ich's richtig verstehe, irgendwie in der Zeit passiert sein.",{"sentences":45899,"speaker":36,"num_words":45853,"start":16326,"end":16519},[45900,45902,45904,45906,45908],{"text":45901,"start":16326,"end":16336},"Ja, ja, voll gerne.",{"text":45903,"start":16338,"end":16392},"Das mit den neuronalen Netzwerken war tatsächlich noch vorher, glaub ich, das war in meinem Praktikum bei der Süddeutschen, da hatt ich einen Kollegen.",{"text":45905,"start":16395,"end":16435},"Also der hat auch eine total große Rolle in in meinem Werdegang und in meinem Interesse für KI.",{"text":45907,"start":16435,"end":16453},"Hallo Felix, falls Du das hörst.",{"text":45909,"start":16456,"end":16519},"Weil mit dem hab ich dann da drüber gesprochen, was wir damals an Blogartikeln gesehen haben aus den USA, dass Leute eben neuronale Netzwerke auch mit Text trainieren.",{"sentences":45911,"speaker":36,"num_words":45240,"start":16522,"end":16739},[45912,45914,45916,45917,45919],{"text":45913,"start":16522,"end":16565},"Ich erinner mich an einen Blogartikel von Andre Capati, 2016, 17 muss das gewesen sein.",{"text":45915,"start":16565,"end":16627},"Der war ja später bei OpenAI und ist jetzt frei, glaub ich, aber halt eine totale Koryphäe mittlerweile und damals, keine Ahnung.",{"text":2849,"start":16627,"end":16629},{"text":45918,"start":16629,"end":16723},"Was halt einfach irgend einen André, der aber halt 'n sehr geilen Blogartikel gemacht hat, weil der halt für jemand wie mich zugänglich war und ich einfach so Schritt für Schritt nachvollziehen konnte, was genau hat er da trainiert.",{"text":45920,"start":16727,"end":16739},"Und er hat halt Ich",{"sentences":45922,"speaker":157,"num_words":187,"start":16739,"end":16773},[45923],{"text":45924,"start":16739,"end":16773},"werd ja, glaub ich, ja noch eine Youtube Reihe draus gemacht, ne?",{"sentences":45926,"speaker":36,"num_words":45247,"start":16773,"end":16854},[45927,45928,45930,45931,45933],{"text":45546,"start":16773,"end":16782},{"text":45929,"start":16782,"end":16800},"Also ich liebe immer noch alles, was der macht.",{"text":2849,"start":16800,"end":16802},{"text":45932,"start":16802,"end":16821},"Er ist total guter Erklärer auch.",{"text":45934,"start":16823,"end":16854},"Und damals ging's aber dadrum, dass der halt irgendwie KI mit Text gemacht hat.",{"sentences":45936,"speaker":36,"num_words":1415,"start":16854,"end":17152},[45937,45939,45940,45942,45944],{"text":45938,"start":16854,"end":16929},"Und das war für mich interessant als Journalistin, weil ich halt irgendwie dachte so, wir erinnern uns, ich wollte ja der Mensch sein, der eigentlich nicht arbeitet, sondern Youtube Videos bei der Arbeit guckt.",{"text":2849,"start":16929,"end":16932},{"text":45941,"start":16934,"end":16993},"Das heißt, es war für mich irgendwie so klar, ich muss Maschinen dazu bringen, dass schreiben können, weil schreiben ist ja das, wofür ich bezahlt werde.",{"text":45943,"start":16995,"end":17062},"Und dann hat dieser Kollege Felix mir eben geholfen, da auf seinem alten MacBook das irgendwie aufzusetzen, dass wir halt son Torch RNA trainieren.",{"text":45945,"start":17065,"end":17152},"Und ich hab die Gutenberg Bibel da reingefüttert, weil ich damals noch nicht wusste, dass man einfach scrapen darf und klauen darf und die Runden, die man schlagen muss und und damit wegkamen.",{"sentences":45947,"speaker":36,"num_words":45520,"start":17156,"end":17252},[45948,45950],{"text":45949,"start":17156,"end":17229},"Ich hab auch dann Leute bei der ob ich deren Texte haben darf und ob ich eine Maschine trainieren darf, um's so zu schreiben wie Du Star Reporter Seite 3.",{"text":45951,"start":17229,"end":17252},"Die haben alle nein gesagt, die fanden das gar nicht",{"sentences":45953,"speaker":137,"num_words":36,"start":17252,"end":17258},[45954,45955],{"text":4252,"start":17252,"end":17254},{"text":17259,"start":17257,"end":17258},{"sentences":45957,"speaker":36,"num_words":45433,"start":17261,"end":17613},[45958,45960,45962,45964,45966],{"text":45959,"start":17261,"end":17279},"Genau, aber das waren so meine ersten Experimente.",{"text":45961,"start":17282,"end":17385},"Also da hab ich dann mit der mit der Gutenberg Bibel trainiert quasi und und das ist das Mac, der das MacBook lief eine Nacht lang heiß und am nächsten Tag kam ich zurück und der konnte son bisschen Bibelverse ausspucken.",{"text":45963,"start":17388,"end":17467},"Also das war das das war das Erste, wo ich quasi auch auch Jahre bevor dem bevor dem taz Projekt mit der Kolumne quasi wusste, okay, irgendwie bringt man Maschinen dahin, Texte zu schreiben.",{"text":45965,"start":17469,"end":17525},"Meine Einschätzung damals wär trotzdem gewesen, nie und nimmer kommen wir an den Punkt, wo eine Maschine einen kohärenten Absatz schreibt.",{"text":45967,"start":17528,"end":17613},"Also das war so wild, der hat dann irgendwelche, also er hat zwar gecheckt, dass 'n Bibelvers irgendwie mit 'ner Zahlenkombination beginnt und dass da ganz viele Stämme und Söhne drin vorkommen.",{"sentences":45969,"speaker":36,"num_words":45980,"start":17617,"end":17978},[45970,45972,45974,45976,45978],{"text":45971,"start":17617,"end":17765},"Aber ansonsten war das kein gutes Deutsch und das waren waren keine kohärenten Sätze und und aber auch, was ich gesehen hab im Internet, was alle anderen machen, war halt einfach wildes Zeug, war irgendwie eine Form von von Textanalyse, die man da bekommen hat und sone quasi son ironisches Verzerrren von was einen Text ausmacht.",{"text":45973,"start":17768,"end":17821},"Ich hab dann, glaub ich, auch irgendwie so, wenn Angela Merkel und Haftbefehl 'n Kind hätten, wie würde das sprechen?",{"text":45975,"start":17821,"end":17882},"Und sone Art von sone Art von Projekte hab ich damals oder von, Projekt kann man's nicht nennen, von Experimenten hab ich damals gemacht.",{"text":45977,"start":17884,"end":17947},"Aber da war ich, also ich hab dann auch überhaupt nicht gecheckt, warum die ganzen so Starjournalisten dann sagen, nee, mach das nicht und benutz nicht meine Texte.",{"text":45979,"start":17947,"end":17978},"Aber ich war so, wovor hast Du Angst, als ob jemals?",139,{"sentences":45982,"speaker":36,"num_words":45556,"start":17982,"end":17988},[45983],{"text":45984,"start":17982,"end":17988},"Du siehst ja",{"sentences":45986,"speaker":157,"num_words":45556,"start":17991,"end":17998},[45987],{"text":45988,"start":17991,"end":17998},"Was jemals passiert?",{"sentences":45990,"speaker":36,"num_words":45792,"start":18001,"end":18056},[45991],{"text":45992,"start":18001,"end":18056},"Du siehst ja, wie er die Bibel hier verunstaltet, als ob er jemals so schreiben kann, wie Du Das sieht jetzt so",{"sentences":45994,"speaker":157,"num_words":45999,"start":18059,"end":18128},[45995,45997],{"text":45996,"start":18059,"end":18079},"Das hättest Du mir was, zeitlich einordnen.",{"text":45998,"start":18079,"end":18128},"Es war so 2 17, also 9 Jahre später und deine Kollegen hatten recht, dir keine Texte zu geben.",26,{"sentences":46001,"speaker":36,"num_words":45542,"start":18128,"end":18187},[46002,46004,46006,46007],{"text":46003,"start":18128,"end":18139},"Jo, absolut.",{"text":46005,"start":18139,"end":18170},"Also ich hab echt, ja, hab hab mich da wirklich getäuscht.",{"text":5851,"start":18173,"end":18174},{"text":46008,"start":18178,"end":18187},"Das war die Zeit quasi.",{"sentences":46010,"speaker":137,"num_words":46014,"start":18191,"end":18216},[46011,46013],{"text":46012,"start":18191,"end":18213},"Opa, 9 Jahre ist ja auch einfach verdammt lang.",{"text":1064,"start":18213,"end":18216},10,{"sentences":46016,"speaker":36,"num_words":45394,"start":18218,"end":18375},[46017,46019,46020,46022,46024],{"text":46018,"start":18218,"end":18237},"Ja, aber andererseits wird das denn, ne?",{"text":2849,"start":18237,"end":18239},{"text":46021,"start":18239,"end":18336},"Aber andererseits, also genau, das war 2017 dann, dann wenn man überlegt, dass ich dann GPT-drei irgendwas angeguckt hab und gedacht hab, ah, Moment mal, das ist auch viel besser, als ich jemals gedacht hätte, dass es wird.",{"text":46023,"start":18339,"end":18350},"Das war dann 3 Jahre später.",{"text":46025,"start":18353,"end":18375},"Und noch mal 'n Jahr später kam Chat GPT raus.",{"sentences":46027,"speaker":36,"num_words":46035,"start":18377,"end":18516},[46028,46029,46031,46033],{"text":10065,"start":18377,"end":18378},{"text":46030,"start":18378,"end":18406},"Oder 2 Jahre, ein ein, 2 Jahre später kam Chat GPT raus.",{"text":46032,"start":18406,"end":18468},"Und seitdem, also ne, wir haben ja auch, also klar, wir sehen, wie's immer besser wird, aber das mit den Texten, das das ging dann schon schnell.",{"text":46034,"start":18468,"end":18516},"Also das war, ich hab mich, ist eine meiner vielen Fehlprognosen im Kaiserreich in den letzten Jahren.",57,{"sentences":46037,"speaker":157,"num_words":45565,"start":18519,"end":18559},[46038,46040],{"text":46039,"start":18519,"end":18546},"Dann spielt ja manchmal vielleicht auch noch 'n paar Prognosen.",{"text":46041,"start":18549,"end":18559},"Mal gucken, ob die zutat",{"sentences":46043,"speaker":36,"num_words":46050,"start":18562,"end":18638},[46044,46046,46048],{"text":46045,"start":18562,"end":18591},"Gerne, gerne, kann Jetzt ist egal, jetzt kann ich einfach raushauen.",{"text":46047,"start":18591,"end":18614},"Ich hab hab schon sone schlechte Track Record.",{"text":46049,"start":18614,"end":18638},"Ich kann die gar nicht kann die gar nicht ruinieren.",29,{"sentences":46052,"speaker":157,"num_words":46059,"start":18641,"end":18746},[46053,46055,46057],{"text":46054,"start":18641,"end":18704},"Aber jetzt passiert ja auch so viel durch Zufall kann man auch irgendwie recht haben, ist auch ganz gut an Prognosen jetzt im Air ispace so.",{"text":46056,"start":18704,"end":18726},"Das ist, viele wilde Themen kann man aufstellen.",{"text":46058,"start":18726,"end":18746},"Die Wahrscheinlichkeit ist auch hoch, dass es",41,{"sentences":46061,"speaker":36,"num_words":45534,"start":18746,"end":18798},[46062,46064],{"text":46063,"start":18746,"end":18752},"vielleicht zutrifft.",{"text":46065,"start":18752,"end":18798},"Genau, ist dann Marketingsache, ob man dann irgendwie schafft, dass die Leute dann an die sich erinnern, wo",{"sentences":46067,"speaker":157,"num_words":46070,"start":18798,"end":18809},[46068],{"text":46069,"start":18798,"end":18809},"man recht hatte oder nicht.",5,{"sentences":46072,"speaker":36,"num_words":45694,"start":18809,"end":18829},[46073,46074],{"text":5851,"start":18809,"end":18811},{"text":46075,"start":18811,"end":18829},"Ja, ja, und Du hast nur nach Amazon",{"sentences":46077,"speaker":157,"num_words":36,"start":18829,"end":18835},[46078,46079],{"text":18833,"start":18829,"end":18831},{"text":5851,"start":18831,"end":18835},{"sentences":46081,"speaker":36,"num_words":46092,"start":18835,"end":19064},[46082,46084,46086,46088,46090],{"text":46083,"start":18835,"end":18858},"Ich bin bei Amazon eingestiegen als Content Editor.",{"text":46085,"start":18862,"end":18891},"Und das ist aber eine Sache, die ich bei Amazon ziemlich cool finde.",{"text":46087,"start":18891,"end":18934},"Das ist eine Firma, die gibt Leuten, also zumindest in in meinem Bereich, sehr schnell viel Verantwortung.",{"text":46089,"start":18937,"end":19031},"Und Du darfst dich für alles interessieren auch und Du darfst auch total quer durch das Unternehmen steigen, wenn Du wenn Du gute Arbeit machst und wenn Du quasi vermittelst, dass es dich interessiert und dass Du das kannst.",{"text":46091,"start":19034,"end":19064},"Und ich hab natürlich auch bei Amazon dann immer geguckt, was ich automatisieren kann.",91,{"sentences":46094,"speaker":36,"num_words":46105,"start":19064,"end":19391},[46095,46097,46099,46101,46103],{"text":46096,"start":19064,"end":19089},"Und das war 'n Umfeld, das das total ermutigt hat.",{"text":46098,"start":19091,"end":19179},"Also ich hab dann auch halt einfach direkt geguckt, wir hatten irgendwelche nervigen Content Management Systeme, die halt hässliche Oberflächen hatten und einfach viel zu viele Klicks von uns Content Editors gefordert haben.",{"text":46100,"start":19181,"end":19293},"Und die hab ich dann halt mit irgendwelchen Excel VBA Skripten halt automatisiert, dass ich dass ich einfach meinen Content in Excel schreiben konnte und dann mit einem Klick diesen Kram hochladen konnte und nicht mit diesem CMS dealen musste.",{"text":46102,"start":19293,"end":19319},"Und da hatt ich halt total Spaß dran an solchen Projekten.",{"text":46104,"start":19322,"end":19391},"Und das ist natürlich was, was Amazon supergerne gesehen hat, weil das ist halt, das die Firma funktioniert total in Optimierung und in Effizienz und in Zahlen.",121,{"sentences":46107,"speaker":36,"num_words":46118,"start":19394,"end":19775},[46108,46110,46112,46114,46116],{"text":46109,"start":19394,"end":19446},"Und dieses Dings, dieses das kleine Skript, was ich da gebaut hab, haben die halt dann weltweit ausgerollt für alle Content Editors.",{"text":46111,"start":19446,"end":19547},"Und dann konntest Du halt rechnen, wie viele Hunderte Stunden pro Tag das dann spart und dass wir halt, weil wir halt, keine Ahnung, 90 Prozent schneller sind, weil wir halt einfach uns 'n paar Klicks sparen.",{"text":46113,"start":19547,"end":19571},"Aber es, überall sone große Firma skaliert das total.",{"text":46115,"start":19574,"end":19622},"Und genau und solche Sachen sind das, die ich gemacht hab und deswegen wurd ich halt dann immer wieder befördert.",{"text":46117,"start":19625,"end":19775},"Und dann genau, war ich nach 'ner Zeit, ist gar nicht, Programm Manager für Content und hab dann quasi nicht nicht mehr einfach selber geschrieben, sondern halt mit mit gemanagt, dass andere Leute schreiben oder dass wir Content kaufen und dass der Content, den den man in Alexa so haben will, dass der gut funktioniert und dass es 'n gutes Produkt ist.",150,{"sentences":46120,"speaker":36,"num_words":46131,"start":19775,"end":20129},[46121,46123,46125,46127,46129],{"text":46122,"start":19775,"end":19795},"Und irgendwann hab ich mich halt dann nach Seattle beworben.",{"text":46124,"start":19798,"end":19850},"Weil auch weil auch Amazon das ermutigt, dass man eigentlich nur 'n halbes Jahr, maximal ein Jahr in derselben Rolle ist.",{"text":46126,"start":19852,"end":19938},"Ich glaub auch aus 'ner, also die zynische Sichtweise wär, wenn Du die Rolle zu lange machst, dann ist ja auch langweilig, strengst Du dich auch nicht mehr an, weil Du nicht mehr neu bist.",{"text":46128,"start":19940,"end":20030},"Dann bist Du vielleicht zu gut da drin und dann rufst Du dich vielleicht aus und dann bringst Du vielleicht nur 80 oder 90 Prozent deiner Leistung und nicht 120 Prozent wie wenn Du neu bist in 'nem Job.",{"text":46130,"start":20033,"end":20129},"Das heißt, ich glaub, das hat schon auch 'n bisschen System, dass man immer entweder kurz vor der Beförderung ist und zeigen muss, was man was man richtig kann, damit man die Beförderung kriegt oder halt neu in 'ner Rolle und sich beweist.",148,{"sentences":46133,"speaker":36,"num_words":45357,"start":20129,"end":20216},[46134,46136,46138],{"text":46135,"start":20129,"end":20160},"Und dann dann ist man in der Rolle und versucht, das zu optimieren.",{"text":46137,"start":20160,"end":20189},"Und wenn man's dann kann und alles optimiert hat, dann geht's weiter.",{"text":46139,"start":20189,"end":20216},"Und das macht einerseits total Spaß, aber trennt natürlich auch Leute aus.",{"sentences":46141,"speaker":137,"num_words":46059,"start":20219,"end":20322},[46142,46144,46146],{"text":46143,"start":20219,"end":20256},"Und das wirkt wie son Sprung von Senior Proger Manager zum Senior Product Manager.",{"text":46145,"start":20259,"end":20288},"Das ist schon 'n ganz andere Aufgabenbereich dann gewesen für dich, oder?",{"text":46147,"start":20288,"end":20322},"Und wie war, also wolltest Du diesen Sprung und wie war er dann für dich?",{"sentences":46149,"speaker":36,"num_words":45132,"start":20325,"end":20456},[46150,46152,46153,46155,46157],{"text":46151,"start":20325,"end":20363},"Ja, ich wollte Product Manager werden, weil Product Manager mehr verdienen als Programm Manager, bei Amazon zumindest.",{"text":2849,"start":20367,"end":20368},{"text":46154,"start":20368,"end":20382},"Nicht, ob's überall so ist.",{"text":46156,"start":20384,"end":20429},"Ich war, also ich war zuerst in 'nem Contentbereich und es war dann quasi Management und war cool.",{"text":46158,"start":20429,"end":20456},"Und dann, was ich vor allem wollte, ist ins Ausland gehen.",{"sentences":46160,"speaker":36,"num_words":46171,"start":20459,"end":20841},[46161,46163,46165,46167,46169],{"text":46162,"start":20459,"end":20598},"Weil ich mir dachte, wenn ich schon bei sonem internationalen Konzern arbeite und die helfen dir ja auch dann mit Relocation Packages und mit den Anwälten, die dein Visum organisieren und und all das, da hab ich gezielt geguckt, was gibt's denn für Jobs, die mich interessieren, die an anderen Standorten sind?",{"text":46164,"start":20602,"end":20636},"Und ich bin nach Seattle gegangen als, ich glaub, Program Manager für Alexa Music.",{"text":46166,"start":20639,"end":20753},"Also es war dann, hatte gar nichts mehr mit Content zu tun, sondern da ging's dann die alle Musikprodukte auf Alexa, also Spotify und Deezer und Apple Music und die sie alle heißen, alle Musikdienste, die Du verbinden kannst, Amazon Music natürlich.",{"text":46168,"start":20756,"end":20807},"Und da ging's ja einfach darum, dass man dann ja, dass dass Salexial die Lieder spielt, die sie spielen soll.",{"text":46170,"start":20811,"end":20841},"Was alle selber beurteilen können, ob wir das gut hinbekommen haben oder nicht.",141,{"sentences":46173,"speaker":36,"num_words":45801,"start":20844,"end":21068},[46174,46176,46178,46180,46182],{"text":46175,"start":20844,"end":20859},"Vor allem in den ganzen verschiedenen Sprachen.",{"text":46177,"start":20859,"end":20878},"Und das war eine eine globale Rolle dann.",{"text":46179,"start":20878,"end":20961},"Also da hab ich dann auch mit irgendwie 14 Ländern zusammengearbeitet und war megaspannend für mich, weil ich halt ich konnte halt auch bei der Bewerbung sagen, ich ich hab halt diesen internationalen Blick.",{"text":46181,"start":20965,"end":21029},"Ich ich arbeite auch im Contentbereich quasi mit den anderen Ländern zusammen und weiß, warum halt 'n Produkt für Japan anders aussehen muss als 'n Produkt für Brasilien.",{"text":46183,"start":21032,"end":21068},"Und hatte halt ja son bisschen diese diese technischen Erfolge im im Rucksack.",{"sentences":46185,"speaker":36,"num_words":46196,"start":21068,"end":21483},[46186,46188,46190,46192,46194],{"text":46187,"start":21068,"end":21171},"Also dass ich halt sagen könnte, guck mal, wie ich hier das den Contentbereich optimiert hab und ich ich kann halt einfach Prozesse und ich kann managen und und komplexe Abläufe vereinfachen, sodass die Leute damit gut arbeiten können.",{"text":46189,"start":21174,"end":21240},"Genau und das war dann, da war ich immer noch Program Manager, glaub ich, und hab da ein Jahr in Seattle verbracht, was leider das Pandemiejahr war.",{"text":46191,"start":21242,"end":21326},"Also ich war nicht so viel in diesen fancy Glas Spears, die es da gibt, sondern sondern in Seattle im Homeoffice hauptsächlich nach nach 3 Wochen, nachdem ich dahin gezogen bin.",{"text":46193,"start":21329,"end":21434},"Und dann, als ich dann entschieden hab, ich geh jetzt dann zurück nach Deutschland und die Pandemie geht leider nicht so schnell vorbei, wie ich wie ich jeden Monat wieder gehofft hab, da war's halt dann einfach eine Product Manager Rolle, auf die ich mich beworben hab.",{"text":46195,"start":21434,"end":21483},"Also auch tatsächlich in 'nem in 'nem Team, das ich gut kannte von damals, aber halt 'n Level drüber.",163,{"sentences":46198,"speaker":36,"num_words":46207,"start":21483,"end":21617},[46199,46201,46203,46205],{"text":46200,"start":21483,"end":21533},"Und da hab ich mich halt dann als als Launch Managerin für für Deutschland beworben und den Job gekriegt.",{"text":46202,"start":21533,"end":21590},"Und genau, und kurz vorher in Seattle wurde ich halt noch befördert zu Senior und dann von Senior Programm Manager zu Senior Product Manager.",{"text":46204,"start":21590,"end":21610},"Das war dann einfach einfach noch mal eine Bewerbung.",{"text":46206,"start":21610,"end":21617},"Das war okay.",55,{"sentences":46209,"speaker":137,"num_words":45325,"start":21620,"end":21761},[46210,46212],{"text":46211,"start":21620,"end":21708},"Und war's dann so, wie Du eben meintest, dass Du so neuer Bereich, fühlst dich erst mal wieder so, als müsstest Du 120 Prozent geben, weil alles irgendwie noch unbekannt ist und Du musstest irgendwie viel lernen?",{"text":46213,"start":21708,"end":21761},"Oder war's dann auch schon für dich, weil Du irgendwie die Prozesse so gut kann, desto einfacher da einzusteigen als Productmanager?",{"sentences":46215,"speaker":36,"num_words":45191,"start":21764,"end":22044},[46216,46218,46220,46222,46224],{"text":46217,"start":21764,"end":21775},"Das war immer so wellenförmig.",{"text":46219,"start":21779,"end":21854},"Also ich glaub, der Switch zu Productmanager, der ist mir nicht so schwergefallen, weil also das ist auch 'n bisschen hab ich das Gefühl, 'n bisschen einfach nur eine Wording Sache.",{"text":46221,"start":21858,"end":21907},"Bei Amazon gibt's halt diese Levels und das das ist dann definiert, also dass ich quasi dann diesen Senior Titel haben durfte.",{"text":46223,"start":21910,"end":21932},"Das musst ich schon krass zeigen auch für die Beförderung.",{"text":46225,"start":21932,"end":22044},"Da musst Du lange Dokumente schreiben, die halt dann zeigen, warum Du quasi auf 'nem Metalevel strategisch arbeitest und ne, welche Erfolge Du geschafft hast, was die für einen Impact haben, die quasi dann Level 6 sind und nicht Level 5 oder wie auch immer.",{"sentences":46227,"speaker":36,"num_words":46238,"start":22047,"end":22205},[46228,46230,46232,46234,46236],{"text":46229,"start":22047,"end":22080},"Und ich fand aber, auch als ich Programm Manager war, hab ich ja am Produkt gearbeitet.",{"text":46231,"start":22080,"end":22097},"Also es ging ja trotzdem immer Launches.",{"text":46233,"start":22097,"end":22137},"Es ging halt dann den Launch, dass die Spotify Software gut funktioniert in der neueren Version.",{"text":46235,"start":22137,"end":22181},"Oder auch als ich Content gemacht hab, hab ich mitgeholfen, Alexa in neuen Ländern zu launchen.",{"text":46237,"start":22181,"end":22205},"Da ging's halt darum, dass die in Brasilien gut funktioniert.",65,{"sentences":46240,"speaker":36,"num_words":46251,"start":22208,"end":22504},[46241,46243,46245,46247,46249],{"text":46242,"start":22208,"end":22258},"Und da hab ich ja natürlich auf 'nem mehr Juniorlevel zugearbeitet, aber es ging ging ja trotzdem immer ums Produkt.",{"text":46244,"start":22261,"end":22412},"Deswegen, als ich dann Launch Managerin für Deutschland war, war's nicht son son krasser Schritt für mich, weil also auch 'n Produktlaunch ist ja irgendwie 'n Programm, weil Du hast ja trotzdem, Du hast ja Hardware und Software und verschiedenste Features und die neuen Features, die funktionieren müssen und die alten Features, die auf die auf das neue Framework funktionieren müssen.",{"text":46246,"start":22415,"end":22465},"Das heißt, ich glaub, für mich war das gar nicht son krasser Unterschied, ob ich mich Produktmanagerin nenne oder Programmmanagerin nenne.",{"text":46248,"start":22465,"end":22496},"Ich wusste eigentlich nur, ich will heißen, weil das halt mehr Geld bedeutet.",{"text":46250,"start":22500,"end":22504},"So, ja.",117,{"sentences":46253,"speaker":36,"num_words":45840,"start":22504,"end":22572},[46254],{"text":46255,"start":22504,"end":22572},"Ich weiß nicht, was da eure Erfahrung ist oder ob das bei Amazon dann auch so anwendbar ist auf die anderen, was was man Produkt und was man Programm nennt.",{"sentences":46257,"speaker":157,"num_words":46268,"start":22576,"end":22889},[46258,46260,46262,46264,46266],{"text":46259,"start":22576,"end":22690},"Ja, ich glaub dadurch, dass wir ja auch in 'ner Firma sind, sehr klein, wo's auch eher darum geht so, macht das, was für den Erfolg notwendig ist, ist bei uns das Titel und der Unterschied zwischen den Titeln macht bei uns nicht nicht so viel aus wegen.",{"text":46261,"start":22690,"end":22749},"Ist bei uns auch immer 'n bisschen interessant, so wie diese Rollen dann ausgeübt werden bei Leuten, mit dem wir uns hier unterhalten.",{"text":46263,"start":22752,"end":22778},"Ich fand aber 2 Sachen auch interessant, die Du über Amazon gesagt hast.",{"text":46265,"start":22778,"end":22832},"Das eine war deine VBA Automatisierungsstory und das andere war dieses so, man bleibt 'n halbes Jahr bis 'nem Jahr in der Rolle.",{"text":46267,"start":22832,"end":22889},"Weil ich eigentlich beide Dinge gesehen in 'ner anderen Industrie, aber hab 'n anderen Blick irgendwie darauf und hätte gedacht, bei Amazon läuft's anders.",131,{"sentences":46270,"speaker":157,"num_words":46277,"start":22889,"end":23273},[46271,46273,46275],{"text":46272,"start":22889,"end":22943},"Also ich hab war lange vorher in der Finanzbranche unterwegs bei großen Banken, auch im Investmentbanking, eher auf der technischen Seite.",{"text":46274,"start":22946,"end":23135},"Und was ich auch gemacht hab, ist, bestimmte Prozesse einfach mit VBA Skripten automatisiert und irgendwie gefühlt Leuten von ihrem Job dann auch beraubt, die vorher alles irgendwie händisch gemacht haben, wo ich irgendwie dachte, also die eine Sache war, krass, so was geht bestimmt auch einfach nur, wo ich damals so überdachte in großen Corporates, die irgendwie im Finanzbereich sind, die irgendwie träge sind und oder irgendwie im Mittelstand, die mit Technologie irgendwie gar nichts zu tun haben.",{"text":46276,"start":23135,"end":23273},"Und find's ja interessant, dass Du diese selbe Story von Amazon, einem Unternehmen, wo ich sagen würde, die sind ja Tech first und da sind so viele Techies, dass es da dieses Potenzial gibt, ich kann Dinge mit VBA machen und global ausrollen, dacht ich immer, ist eher verstaubten Enterprises vorbehalten.",151,{"sentences":46279,"speaker":36,"num_words":46283,"start":23273,"end":23334},[46280,46281],{"text":23279,"start":23273,"end":23276},{"text":46282,"start":23281,"end":23334},"Also Du denkst, wir hätten dann bei Amazon gar kein hässliches CMS gehabt, dass man überhaupt, sondern die hätten das dann nicht",23,{"sentences":46285,"speaker":157,"num_words":46296,"start":23337,"end":23723},[46286,46288,46290,46292,46294],{"text":46287,"start":23337,"end":23425},"Ja oder dass da überhaupt das Potenzial dafür da ist, dass jemand mit, ich dachte immer, so was wird von Grund auf irgendwie automatisiert und irgendwie in so fisticated Technologie geschrieben, als dass jemand, der eigentlich Ja.",{"text":46289,"start":23428,"end":23468},"Am Content arbeitet, vielleicht ein bisschen Interesse für Tech hat, son VBA in dem's gern ausrollen kann.",{"text":46291,"start":23468,"end":23573},"Die hat gedacht, dass wir dann direkt erkennen, ah ja, okay, hier ist Potenzial, wir bauen das perfekte Tool dafür und nicht, wir nehmen das VBA Tool und rollen das dann dann alle aus und nehmen Find fand ich irgendwie interessant.",{"text":46293,"start":23573,"end":23686},"Ich hätte gedacht, das ist irgendwie von vom Grundsatz her direkt technologischer gedacht, weil so in den Enterprises, die ich da vorgesehen hab, so, na ja, es gibt ganz lange Prozesse, vorher wird irgendwie immer alles händisch gemacht und Technologie kam irgendwann eher so on top obendrauf.",{"text":46295,"start":23689,"end":23723},"Und Amazon war für mich 1 der Unternehmen so, ja, der ist halt direkt mit Technologie gedacht.",159,{"sentences":46298,"speaker":157,"num_words":45357,"start":23723,"end":23818},[46299,46301],{"text":46300,"start":23723,"end":23755},"Deswegen finde ich interessant, dass da diese Potenziale auch dafür da sind.",{"text":46302,"start":23755,"end":23818},"Und sehr cool, dass Du das dann auch gemacht hast und die Chance ergreifst, aber auch Amazon dann sagt, ja, dann lass das nutzen, cool.",{"sentences":46304,"speaker":36,"num_words":45853,"start":23818,"end":24020},[46305,46307,46309,46311,46313],{"text":46306,"start":23818,"end":23832},"Ja, stimmt, das ist lustig.",{"text":46308,"start":23832,"end":23910},"Aber wenn Du das, wenn Du da grade so drüber sprichst, dann fällt mir auf, das ist auch was, was man von außen nicht so sieht, aber Amazon ist schon auch son Chaoshaufen.",{"text":46310,"start":23913,"end":23924},"Also es ist irgendwie beides.",{"text":46312,"start":23927,"end":23967},"Es ist teilweise eine natürlich eine hochprofessionelle Firma und also das sieht man allein an dem Erfolg.",{"text":46314,"start":23970,"end":24020},"Die können Prozesse und die können optimieren und die können datengetrieben arbeiten und einfach wirklich, wirklich gute Technologie machen, teilweise.",{"sentences":46316,"speaker":36,"num_words":46326,"start":24023,"end":24221},[46317,46318,46320,46322,46324],{"text":10065,"start":24023,"end":24024},{"text":46319,"start":24024,"end":24073},"Und dann gibt's aber trotzdem die Stellen oder die Ecken wie in jedem Unternehmen, wo das auch 'n bisschen zerfällt.",{"text":46321,"start":24076,"end":24148},"Und ich glaub auch ganz oft in meinem Job, also kommt immer drauf an, womit man's vergleicht, aber ganz oft hatt ich auch das Gefühl, es ist einfach eine komplette Shitshow.",{"text":46323,"start":24152,"end":24184},"Und unser Job ist einfach halt nur diesen brennenden Müllhaufen zusammenzuhalten irgendwie.",{"text":46325,"start":24184,"end":24221},"Und ne, und also ich ich sag jetzt vielleicht nichts über die konkreten Bereiche.",78,{"sentences":46328,"speaker":36,"num_words":46339,"start":24221,"end":24494},[46329,46331,46333,46335,46337],{"text":46330,"start":24221,"end":24250},"Ich weiß nicht mehr, was genau in meinem NDA Stand damals.",{"text":46332,"start":24252,"end":24371},"Aber ich glaub, es ist nicht zu viel gesagt, weil ich einfach sag, wie in jedem Unternehmen, da arbeiten halt Menschen und nicht immer alles läuft so effizient, auch wenn so die Grundeinstellung und die Grundhaltung ist, dass man schon weiß, wie 'n wie 'n optimaler Prozess zu laufen hat.",{"text":46334,"start":24371,"end":24404},"Aber das ist also das, es sei, dass man sich gut finde andererseits.",{"text":46336,"start":24408,"end":24470},"Amazon ist ja auch bekannt dafür, dass es einfach customer centric ist und es geht am Ende den Kunden und es geht am Ende ums Produkt.",{"text":46338,"start":24472,"end":24494},"Und deswegen ist es dann in dem Moment nicht so dogmatisch.",111,{"sentences":46341,"speaker":36,"num_words":39,"start":24497,"end":24733},[46342,46344,46346,46348,46350],{"text":46343,"start":24497,"end":24550},"Also es das ist halt das, was was ich total schön auch fand und total befreiend, auch im Vergleich zu anderen Unternehmen, die ich kenne.",{"text":46345,"start":24552,"end":24566},"Ist halt egal, wer dann was macht.",{"text":46347,"start":24566,"end":24624},"Also es wirklich, es war wirklich, wirklich egal, dass ich halt eine Content Editor in München bin, sondern wenn das funktioniert, funktioniert's.",{"text":46349,"start":24628,"end":24678},"Und dann haben alle meine Chefs mich auch immer unterstützt dabei, das halt dann auch nach oben zu spielen, das auszurollen.",{"text":46351,"start":24681,"end":24733},"Da steht sich niemand selber im Weg mit, ah, eigentlich sollte das so sein und eigentlich wär der Prozess anders, sondern es geht ums Ergebnis.",{"sentences":46353,"speaker":36,"num_words":741,"start":24733,"end":24880},[46354,46356],{"text":46355,"start":24733,"end":24847},"Und das ist das ist, glaub ich, wirklich was, wo sich viele andere Unternehmen, grade die großen bürokratischen, auch was von abschneiden können, halt einfach 'n Ziel vor Augen haben und dann machen und dann nicht zu viel fragen, oh, haben wir das immer so gemacht?",{"text":46357,"start":24847,"end":24880},"Oder sollte nicht eigentlich jemand anderes da noch mal 'n Auge drauf haben so?",{"sentences":46359,"speaker":157,"num_words":46370,"start":24882,"end":25186},[46360,46362,46364,46366,46368],{"text":46361,"start":24882,"end":24935},"Ich glaub, damit hast Du auch gefühlt schon die Antwort für meine zweiten Unterschied irgendwie zu, wie läuft das in sozusagen in der Finanzbranche?",{"text":46363,"start":24939,"end":25075},"Weil der Apartment, das Du meintest so, man ist angehalten, alle halbe Jahr bis Jahr den Job irgendwie zu wechseln und dann ist man so die ganze Zeit auf einem son hohen produktiv Produktivitätsniveau, was vielleicht auch zu Burn out führt, aber so man holt das Maximale aus der menschlichen Ressource raus.",{"text":46365,"start":25075,"end":25117},"Dieses man ist 'n halbes Jahr bis 'n Jahr im Job hab ich auch bei den Banken gesehen.",{"text":46367,"start":25117,"end":25161},"Aber da hab ich eher das Gefühl, das war ein das war die Krankheit, dass sozusagen Leute das nutzen.",{"text":46369,"start":25161,"end":25186},"Ich hoppe einfach ein jedes Jahr irgendwie aufn anderen Job.",123,{"sentences":46372,"speaker":157,"num_words":46059,"start":25186,"end":25294},[46373,46375,46377,46378,46380],{"text":46374,"start":25186,"end":25223},"Das heißt, im ersten halben Jahr kann ich einfach nur große Thesen in den Raum stellen.",{"text":46376,"start":25223,"end":25237},"Keiner erwartet was von mir.",{"text":10065,"start":25237,"end":25240},{"text":46379,"start":25240,"end":25283},"Und kurz bevor es dann dahin kommt und sagt, jetzt krieg ich langsamer Lieferverantwortung, Mhm.",{"text":46381,"start":25285,"end":25294},"Wechsel ich den Job.",{"sentences":46383,"speaker":157,"num_words":45119,"start":25294,"end":25477},[46384,46386],{"text":46385,"start":25294,"end":25338},"Und das ist eher das Tool, sozusagen Arbeit von einem wegzuhalten und sehr lange mit nur Worten durchzukommen.",{"text":46387,"start":25338,"end":25477},"Deswegen sehr interessant, dass aber ist vielleicht auch der Unterschied, sodass man halt sagt, man hat 'n klares Ziel vor Augen, man muss hier liefern und dann kann man aus diesem aus diesem gleichen Tool mit häufigen Wechseln eher viel rausholen, als das vielleicht bei Banken der Fall war, dass man damit sehr viel weniger rausholt.",{"sentences":46389,"speaker":36,"num_words":39,"start":25481,"end":25718},[46390,46392,46394,46396,46398],{"text":46391,"start":25481,"end":25501},"Und die Grundgeschwindigkeit ist wahrscheinlich eine andere, ne.",{"text":46393,"start":25501,"end":25557},"Also dadurch, dass alle bei Amazon sehr schnell denken und sehr schnell wechseln, brauchst Du halt auch nur 'n paar Wochen, dich einzuarbeiten.",{"text":46395,"start":25560,"end":25596},"Und nach 'n paar Wochen wird schon dir halt schon gefordert, dass Du Ergebnisse lieferst.",{"text":46397,"start":25599,"end":25695},"Und alle dich rum arbeiten dich auch schnell ein und dann, also das ist, glaub ich, vielleicht ist ein Jahr bei Amazon halt so viel wie in 'nem anderen Unternehmen 3, 4 Jahre im Sinne von wie lang man auch braucht, zu lernen.",{"text":46399,"start":25695,"end":25718},"Und ich mein, das was auch was, was Amazon gut kann.",{"sentences":46401,"speaker":36,"num_words":46404,"start":25718,"end":25848},[46402],{"text":46403,"start":25718,"end":25848},"Es ist halt dann sehr vieles auch einfach dokumentiert und die werfen ja halt am Ende die Dokumentation hin und dann, jetzt ist da musst Du nicht irgendwie monatelang Meetings machen, bis Du verstehst, wie der Laden läuft, sondern der Laden läuft und Du wirst dann da reingeworfen, ja.",49,{"sentences":46406,"speaker":157,"num_words":46414,"start":25850,"end":26024},[46407,46408,46410,46412],{"text":5941,"start":25850,"end":25851},{"text":46409,"start":25854,"end":25897},"Vielleicht, weil wir 'n bisschen, wenn wir auf die Uhr blicken wollen, noch 'n bisschen was KI unterhalten wollen.",{"text":46411,"start":25897,"end":25950},"Lass uns mal den Fast forward machen zu, wie kam's dann der Schritt wieder zurück von Amazon hin, wieder zum Journalismus.",{"text":46413,"start":25953,"end":26024},"Und jetzt Podcast vom Host vom KI Podcast, Chief AI Officer, wie wie kam wie kam dieser Switch von Amazon dann da wieder raus und zurück in KI und Journalismus?",71,{"sentences":46416,"speaker":36,"num_words":46326,"start":26027,"end":26224},[46417,46418,46420,46422,46424],{"text":2849,"start":26027,"end":26028},{"text":46419,"start":26031,"end":26043},"Irgendwann hat's gereicht bei Amazon.",{"text":46421,"start":26043,"end":26070},"Also ne, ich hab da so diese Burn out Sachen angesprochen.",{"text":46423,"start":26070,"end":26113},"Ich Ich hab superviele Leute mich rum ausbrennen gesehen, natürlich dann auch noch mehr während der Pandemie.",{"text":46425,"start":26116,"end":26224},"Ich weiß nicht, ich hab selber nie mir eine professionelle Diagnose geholt, aber glaub schon, dass ich auch mal 'n kleines Burn out zumindest hatte und mich dann davon wieder erholt hab und dann noch mal in in Deutschland noch mal diese Produktmanagerrolle hatte.",{"sentences":46427,"speaker":36,"num_words":46438,"start":26224,"end":26508},[46428,46430,46432,46434,46436],{"text":46429,"start":26224,"end":26275},"Aber ich hab auch gemerkt dann, also da ging's halt dann Launches und da ging's da drum, das effizient zu machen.",{"text":46431,"start":26277,"end":26331},"Aber ich hatte dann das Gefühl, ich hab da auch wieder son Plateau erreicht und die nächste Beförderung wär dann halt Director gewesen.",{"text":46433,"start":26334,"end":26380},"Und da hab ich dann auch gemerkt, das reizt mich nicht und dafür hab ich aber auch die Energie nicht.",{"text":46435,"start":26380,"end":26407},"Also es wär halt noch mal eine krasse Beförderung gewesen, die anzustreben.",{"text":46437,"start":26410,"end":26508},"Ich hatte natürlich sagen können, ich bleib in dem Job, aber da hatt ich halt son bisschen das Gefühl, ich lern da jetzt nichts mehr Neues, sondern ich manage halt einfach meinen Alltag so weg und das ist manchmal cool und manchmal nervig.",119,{"sentences":46440,"speaker":36,"num_words":46451,"start":26511,"end":26872},[46441,46443,46445,46447,46449],{"text":46442,"start":26511,"end":26533},"Aber es gibt halt nicht so den logischen nächsten Schritt.",{"text":46444,"start":26533,"end":26673},"Und der logische nächste Schritt auf dann irgendwie Europalevel oder so was zu gehen, da wusst ich halt so, nee, das da müsst ich mich jetzt mega reinhängen und auch die Ellbogen ausfahren, weil das halt dann auch einen Level ist, auf auf dem halt es wenige Stellen gibt und sehr viele Leute miteinander konkurrieren.",{"text":46446,"start":26676,"end":26761},"Und ich weiß gar nicht, ob ich das alles so mir gedacht hab damals oder ob einfach halt die Stelle bei die neue Stelle quasi in mein mein Leben kam und ich dann erst gecheckt hab, es reicht.",{"text":46448,"start":26764,"end":26782},"Aber es hat irgendwie so ganz gut gepasst.",{"text":46450,"start":26785,"end":26872},"Also die Deutsche Welle hat eine Stelle ausgeschrieben, da ging's Innovationsmanagement im Lab, also irgendwas mit coolen Innovationsprojekten, irgendwas mit Technologiemanagement und halt in dem Bereich, der mich ja immer interessiert hat, also Journalismus.",145,{"sentences":46453,"speaker":36,"num_words":45247,"start":26874,"end":26946},[46454,46455],{"text":5851,"start":26874,"end":26875},{"text":46456,"start":26875,"end":26946},"Und als ich irgendwie diese Stelle gesehen hab, hab ich, ich glaub, ich hab eigentlich gedacht, ich bewerb mich mal aus Spaß, zu gucken, ob die Journalisten mich noch wollen so.",{"sentences":46458,"speaker":157,"num_words":36,"start":26946,"end":26954},[46459,46460],{"text":10065,"start":26946,"end":26949},{"text":26955,"start":26953,"end":26954},{"sentences":46462,"speaker":36,"num_words":46472,"start":26957,"end":27203},[46463,46465,46467,46468,46470],{"text":46464,"start":26957,"end":27046},"Und hab eigentlich, hab 'n bisschen mir auch gedacht, ja, das wird wahrscheinlich nichts, weil ich auch bei Amazon natürlich extrem gut verdient hab dann auf dem Niveau Und wusste, in im Medienbereich verdienst Du einfach nicht das.",{"text":46466,"start":27048,"end":27102},"Und außerdem wusst ich ja nicht, ob ob das irgendwie für die überhaupt akzeptabel ist, dass ich jetzt jahrelang auf der dunklen Seite war.",{"text":10065,"start":27104,"end":27105},{"text":46469,"start":27105,"end":27129},"Und am Ende haben die mir aber 'n Angebot gemacht.",{"text":46471,"start":27131,"end":27203},"Und ich hab lange drüber nachgedacht, ob ich quasi auch von meinem Gehaltsniveau runterwill, aber fand dann den Laden so sympathisch, hatte einfach so Bock auf diese Jobbeschreibung.",101,{"sentences":46474,"speaker":36,"num_words":46484,"start":27206,"end":27432},[46475,46477,46479,46481,46482],{"text":46476,"start":27206,"end":27258},"Und hab dann gesagt, okay, ja, ich hab jetzt 'n bisschen bisschen Geld verdient, die letzten Jahre auch meine Aktienpakete ja mitgenommen.",{"text":46478,"start":27261,"end":27337},"Ich kann mir das vielleicht auch einfach gönnen, noch mal 'n schlechter bezahlten Job zu machen und dafür halt bei 'nem Unternehmen was Werte hat, an die ich glaube und Mhm.",{"text":46480,"start":27340,"end":27380},"Was eine coole, wichtige Arbeit macht für die Demokratie und die Freiheit auf der Welt so.",{"text":5851,"start":27383,"end":27384},{"text":46483,"start":27386,"end":27432},"Und dann bin ich gewechselt, dann bin ich nach Berlin gezogen und und hab bei der Deutschen Welle angefangen.",89,{"sentences":46486,"speaker":137,"num_words":46491,"start":27434,"end":27473},[46487,46489],{"text":46488,"start":27434,"end":27453},"Was haben die denn gesagt zu deiner dunklen Seite?",{"text":46490,"start":27453,"end":27473},"Oder hatten sie gar keinen Take dazu?",16,{"sentences":46493,"speaker":36,"num_words":46504,"start":27473,"end":27635},[46494,46496,46498,46500,46502],{"text":46495,"start":27473,"end":27505},"Hat mich immer überrascht, aber auch auch aus anderen Bereichen im Journalismus.",{"text":46497,"start":27505,"end":27549},"Das war nie 'n Thema, sondern es war eher so, dass es, glaub ich, total gut für meinen Lebenslauf war.",{"text":46499,"start":27551,"end":27573},"Ich irgendwie beeindruckt Amazon als Name die Leute auch total.",{"text":46501,"start":27573,"end":27592},"Das hat mich auch überrascht, wie krass das ist.",{"text":46503,"start":27594,"end":27635},"Ich glaub, es gibt mir auf eine Art noch mal eine Credibility, die ich auch nicht erwartet hätte.",69,{"sentences":46506,"speaker":36,"num_words":46238,"start":27638,"end":27792},[46507,46509,46511],{"text":46508,"start":27638,"end":27736},"Aber ich hör ich hör wenig so, oh, aber moralisch ganz schlimm, dass Du für die gearbeitet hast, sondern mehr so, ach cool, Du kannst bestimmt was, weil wir gucken da von außen drauf und es scheint zu funktionieren, was die machen.",{"text":46510,"start":27736,"end":27766},"Also was auch immer Du da gelernt hast, bitte bring das zu uns.",{"text":46512,"start":27769,"end":27792},"Also es war tatsächlich viel, viel offener, als ich dachte.",{"sentences":46514,"speaker":157,"num_words":46370,"start":27795,"end":28103},[46515,46517,46519,46521,46523],{"text":46516,"start":27795,"end":27917},"Das ist aber generell interessant, finde ich, an dem Unternehmen Amazon, sodass wenn man halt so, glaube ich, auch aus der Techbranche draufblickt und irgendwie als Amazon als Unternehmen das Techunternehmen sieht, ist das so superbeeindruckend und irgendwie supercool, auch mit ABS, einfach was die da drum rum machen.",{"text":46518,"start":27917,"end":27984},"Und andererseits ist das das Produkt Amazon, Amazon d e, der der E-Commerce-Store ist natürlich irgendwie hat eine ganz andere, darauf hat man eine ganz andere Sicht.",{"text":46520,"start":27984,"end":28026},"Und irgendwie, wenn ich wirklich auf das Produkt schaue, denke ich anders darüber nach als auf das Unternehmen.",{"text":46522,"start":28029,"end":28047},"Man arbeitet da und entwickelt Techprodukte so.",{"text":46524,"start":28047,"end":28103},"Also ich hab da auch irgendwie son je nachdem, über welches Amazon ich rede, hab ich eine andere Meinung über dieses Unternehmen.",{"sentences":46526,"speaker":157,"num_words":46531,"start":28103,"end":28209},[46527,46529],{"text":46528,"start":28103,"end":28156},"Also es ist nicht es ist der Inhalt und und Umsetzung und Art Company sind schon 2 2 Paar Schuhe.",{"text":46530,"start":28156,"end":28209},"Ich glaub auch auch grade bei der Company so, ob man im Tech Bereich ist oder ob man eher in den Warehouse von Amazon",44,{"sentences":46533,"speaker":36,"num_words":46543,"start":28209,"end":28401},[46534,46535,46537,46539,46541],{"text":4884,"start":28209,"end":28211},{"text":46536,"start":28211,"end":28225},"Ja, das ist auch interessant.",{"text":46538,"start":28225,"end":28269},"Ja, das ist auch, glaub ich, was ganz anderes für wie sich's für die Mitarbeitenden anfühlt, ja.",{"text":46540,"start":28269,"end":28319},"Also es gibt schon, es sind schon viele viele Firmen in 1 sozusagen und Alexa ist auch noch mal 'n eigener Kosmos.",{"text":46542,"start":28319,"end":28401},"Vielleicht spielt das auch eine Rolle, dass ich nicht E-Commerce gemacht hab, sondern Alexa und dass dann die Leute da schon sehen, das hat irgendwie noch was mit Content zu tun gehabt oder weiß ich nicht.",81,{"sentences":46545,"speaker":36,"num_words":46548,"start":28401,"end":28461},[46546],{"text":46547,"start":28401,"end":28461},"Da werd ich halt dann viel gefragt, ob wir alle abgehört werden Und kann aus meiner Sicht, aus dem, was ich gesehen hab, beruhigen, aber",25,{"sentences":46550,"speaker":157,"num_words":45268,"start":28463,"end":28472},[46551],{"text":46552,"start":28463,"end":28472},"Das ist nicht so.",{"sentences":46554,"speaker":137,"num_words":45999,"start":28472,"end":28539},[46555],{"text":46556,"start":28472,"end":28539},"Würdest Du denn sagen, dass sich dein journalistischer Blick oder geändert wahrscheinlich, aber auch verbessert hat dadurch, dass Du vielleicht so intern in diesen Dingen warst?",{"sentences":46558,"speaker":36,"num_words":46569,"start":28542,"end":28694},[46559,46561,46563,46565,46567],{"text":46560,"start":28542,"end":28555},"Das ist eine sehr gute Frage.",{"text":46562,"start":28558,"end":28578},"Ich glaub schon, dass es mir total was gebracht hat.",{"text":46564,"start":28578,"end":28613},"Also ich glaub, es hat mir was gebracht, ausm Journalismus raus zu sein, egal wo.",{"text":46566,"start":28617,"end":28658},"Weil der Journalismus ist ja auch eine Bubble und das sind dann auch bestimmte Blickwinkel einfach vorherrschend.",{"text":46568,"start":28661,"end":28694},"Und ich glaub, das hilft mir, dass ich auch mal von außen einfach drauf geguckt hab.",64,{"sentences":46571,"speaker":157,"num_words":36,"start":28697,"end":28702},[46572],{"text":46573,"start":28697,"end":28702},"Und und",{"sentences":46575,"speaker":36,"num_words":45108,"start":28702,"end":29013},[46576,46578,46580,46582,46584],{"text":46577,"start":28702,"end":28771},"nicht jetzt einfach für immer so in meinen da auch diesen nur quasi den journalistischen Idealismus hatte und und nur und nur wusste, wie Medien Leute untereinander reden.",{"text":46579,"start":28774,"end":28857},"Und jetzt, wenn ich jetzt auf Amazon und die anderen Tech Krisen gucke, dann hab ich natürlich auch einfach einen 'n bestimmtes Gefühl und einen bestimmten Blickwinkel und eine bestimmte Meinung dazu, wie die agieren.",{"text":46581,"start":28859,"end":28927},"Und klar, man sieht auch man sieht auch immer nur einen Teil von der Wahrheit, also auch auch von innen seh ich ja nicht alles, was das Unternehmen ausmacht.",{"text":46583,"start":28929,"end":28955},"Aber ich glaub schon, dass es mir jetzt hilft, kritisch zu sein.",{"text":46585,"start":28957,"end":29013},"In der KI Berichterstattung haben wir's ja grade total stark, dass viele leider einfach halt nur wiedergeben, was die was die Techies sagen.",{"sentences":46587,"speaker":36,"num_words":46598,"start":29017,"end":29273},[46588,46590,46592,46594,46596],{"text":46589,"start":29017,"end":29046},"Also dass dass man da auch, glaub ich, 'n bisschen ehrfürchtig ist.",{"text":46591,"start":29046,"end":29146},"Und ich glaub halt auch viele Menschen, die im Journalismus arbeiten, die halt sich nicht als Techies begreifen, dass die auch so sone mentale Schranke haben und dann denken so, ah, aber ich habe eben nicht Computer Science in Stanford studiert.",{"text":46593,"start":29148,"end":29166},"Und deswegen muss ich das ja eigentlich glauben.",{"text":46595,"start":29166,"end":29240},"Und wenn die mir dann sagen, das, was die bauen, ist total krass, dann kann ich das ja nicht hinterfragen, aber ich hab ja keine Ahnung, das ist ja irgendwas mit Zahlen.",{"text":46597,"start":29240,"end":29273},"Ich mach ja Buchstaben aus 'nem Grund, weil ich Martin noch nie mochte.",106,{"sentences":46600,"speaker":36,"num_words":45887,"start":29276,"end":29446},[46601,46603,46605],{"text":46602,"start":29276,"end":29315},"Und das ist son sone eine Haltung oder 'n Bauchgefühl, was ich total viel sehe.",{"text":46604,"start":29315,"end":29443},"Und was dann, glaub ich, dazu führt, dass man teilweise halt einfach unkritisch auch die Storys übernimmt und nicht so sehr durchblickt, dass es halt einfach auch 'n krasses Marketing ist und dass die auch bewusst sich als Nerds inszenieren und bewusst ihre Technologie als was inszenieren, was man nicht verstehen kann.",{"text":10065,"start":29445,"end":29446},{"sentences":46607,"speaker":157,"num_words":36,"start":29446,"end":29451},[46608],{"text":46609,"start":29446,"end":29451},"Und es",{"sentences":46611,"speaker":36,"num_words":45145,"start":29451,"end":29714},[46612,46614,46616,46618],{"text":46613,"start":29451,"end":29520},"ist, find ich, nicht die Rolle des Journalismus, sondern die Rolle des Journalismus ist eigentlich, sich in komplexe Sachen einzuarbeiten, Dinge zu verstehen, auch wenn sie schwierig zu verstehen sind.",{"text":46615,"start":29522,"end":29568},"Das machen wir auch in der Politik, das machen wir auch in der Wirtschaft, das machen wir in in allen Bereichen.",{"text":46617,"start":29571,"end":29675},"Und ich glaub, dass, auf eine Art hilft es mir, dass ich das Unternehmen von innen gesehen hab, weil ich halt auch weiß, wie die über PR nachdenken, was dann wirklich da intern funktioniert und was halt 'n brennendes Damster Feier ist so.",{"text":46619,"start":29677,"end":29714},"Und ich glaub, das ja, hatten wir ganz gut getan, beide beide Bereiche mal zu sehen.",{"sentences":46621,"speaker":157,"num_words":46632,"start":29717,"end":30116},[46622,46624,46626,46628,46630],{"text":46623,"start":29717,"end":29817},"Ich find auch, wenn man grade den KI Podcast hört und irgendwie deinen dich da auch reden hört in dem Podcast, da find ich auch, dass es Ich mein, ihr macht da ja den, ihr bringt KI der breiten Masse in Deutschland irgendwie näher.",{"text":46625,"start":29817,"end":29894},"Also das heißt, es sind jetzt nicht in erster Linie Techies, wie jetzt bei uns die Zielgruppe ist, so wo man sagt, man geht irgendwie in die Technik in Finessen rein.",{"text":46627,"start":29894,"end":30027},"Aber ich find auch, wenn man dir dabei zuhört, merkt man, obwohl das auf der Flughöhe ist, dass da draußen jeder verstehen kann, dass Du sehr tief irgendwie in den Themen drin bist und irgendwie weiß, wovon Du redest und irgendwie an den richtigen Stellen irgendwie den Kontext gibst, den da draußen auch Leute verstehen können.",{"text":46629,"start":30027,"end":30051},"Man merkt aber, Du hast dich im Detail damit auseinandergesetzt.",{"text":46631,"start":30054,"end":30116},"Vielleicht kannst Du uns mal, wenn wir jetzt wirklich auf das Heute gehen, weil damit wir gleich noch 'n bisschen Zeit haben über KI im Allgemeinen zu reden.",169,{"sentences":46634,"speaker":157,"num_words":46643,"start":30116,"end":30492},[46635,46637,46639,46641],{"text":46636,"start":30116,"end":30272},"Wie sieht denn heute so dein Alltag, Arbeitsalltag son bisschen aus und wie kriegst Du es hin, dir diese Themen so anzuschauen, so ohne Also wir wir als Techis sind ja so, wir haben ja einen Anwendungsfall, probieren KI zu nutzen, Anwendungsfälle damit umzusetzen und reden ja auch in 'nem Podcast dann auch darüber, über wie wir's in der Arbeit irgendwie einsetzen.",{"text":46638,"start":30275,"end":30290},"Aber so wie wie machst Du das?",{"text":46640,"start":30290,"end":30406},"Wie stellt man sich das wie stellt man sich das vor, wo es ja das Gefühl so ist so, das Produkt ist am Ende immer den Leuten was davon zu erzählen so und welche Projekte sucht man sich, irgendwie da am Ball zu bleiben und in diese Details reinzugehen so.",{"text":46642,"start":30406,"end":30492},"Also das ist, glaube ich, was, was für uns als Techies und vielleicht unseren Zuhörern so nicht so natürlich kommt, zu verstehen, wie dein Arbeitsalltag so als GFAI Officer und Podcast Host zu dem Thema aussieht.",155,{"sentences":46645,"speaker":36,"num_words":46653,"start":30492,"end":30691},[46646,46647,46649,46651],{"text":2849,"start":30492,"end":30495},{"text":46648,"start":30498,"end":30536},"Ja, also erst mal danke, weil das ist voll cool zu hören, dass das so ankommt.",{"text":46650,"start":30536,"end":30578},"Also das ist das, was wir versuchen mit dem Podcast halt wirklich fürn breites Publikum.",{"text":46652,"start":30581,"end":30691},"Nicht zu oberflächlich zu sein, dass es die Techies langweilt, aber halt auch nicht so, dass es nicht Weil wir wir wissen, es muss ganz viele Mütter und Väter und Omas und Opas auch hören und auch irgendwas mitnehmen können daraus.",73,{"sentences":46655,"speaker":157,"num_words":45095,"start":30694,"end":30722},[46656,46658],{"text":46657,"start":30694,"end":30712},"Also die Techies langweilt ihr auf jeden Fall nicht.",{"text":46659,"start":30712,"end":30722},"Ich hör's sehr gern.",{"sentences":46661,"speaker":36,"num_words":46670,"start":30722,"end":30932},[46662,46664,46666,46668],{"text":46663,"start":30722,"end":30738},"Das ist echt, das ist echt supercool.",{"text":46665,"start":30738,"end":30814},"Aber wir kriegen auch viele Zuschriften und freuen uns immer, wenn Leute dann auch so, wenn wir dann merken, oh, die haben echte technische Berufe und echte Techies, gehören uns auch.",{"text":46667,"start":30814,"end":30926},"Das ist schon irgendwie eine Auszeichnung, weil ja, irgendwie gibt's so in den Köpfen son bisschen diese Trennung halt zwischen so Journalismus, Sozialwissenschaften, Kulturleuten und dann halt den Leuten, die wirklich echte Techniken mit Zahlen und Semikolons Semikolon, ne.",{"text":46669,"start":30926,"end":30932},"Wissen, wo",79,{"sentences":46672,"speaker":157,"num_words":45268,"start":30932,"end":30944},[46673],{"text":46674,"start":30932,"end":30944},"die Semikolon ziehen müssen.",{"sentences":46676,"speaker":36,"num_words":45433,"start":30946,"end":31277},[46677,46679,46681,46683,46685],{"text":46678,"start":30946,"end":30998},"Ich versuch, also ich glaub, was was für mich gut war, ist, dass ich einfach keine Angst vor dem Thema hatte jemals.",{"text":46680,"start":31001,"end":31087},"Und das irgendwie geschafft habe, auch durch coole Leute mich rum wie mein Kollege damals oder halt wie Andre Caparthy, die halt dann einfach Dinge teilen auf eine Art, dass man als Nuntaggy das verstehen kann.",{"text":46682,"start":31089,"end":31222},"Ich hab mich immer getraut, da einzutauchen und ich hab mich nicht abschrecken lassen, auch von technischen Papers oder von ja, halt davon auch mal Code zu lesen oder auch mal Dinge Dinge zu lesen, wo wo man vielleicht nicht ins letzte Detail, wo ich vielleicht nicht ins letzte Detail eigentlich die Grundlagen hab, das zu verstehen.",{"text":46684,"start":31225,"end":31251},"Ich glaub, das ist superwichtig, dass man einfach keine Berührungsängste hat.",{"text":46686,"start":31253,"end":31277},"Das ist 'n bisschen, wie wenn man eine Sprache lernt.",{"sentences":46688,"speaker":36,"num_words":45247,"start":31280,"end":31353},[46689],{"text":46690,"start":31280,"end":31353},"Und es gibt dann Leute, die trauen sich nie, die Sprache zu sprechen, obwohl sie sie eigentlich total gut können, weil sie einfach vor jedem Grammatikfehler, den sie machen könnten, Angst haben.",{"sentences":46692,"speaker":157,"num_words":137,"start":31355,"end":31356},[46693],{"text":10065,"start":31355,"end":31356},{"sentences":46695,"speaker":36,"num_words":45202,"start":31356,"end":31547},[46696,46698,46700,46702,46704],{"text":46697,"start":31356,"end":31397},"Und andere Leute oder dieselben Leute, wenn sie 'n Bier getrunken haben, trauen sich einfach zu reden.",{"text":46699,"start":31399,"end":31420},"Und dann dann klappt's auch total und das merkt man.",{"text":46701,"start":31423,"end":31466},"Also da bin ich auch total dankbar all den anderen Leuten, die Content machen, quasi auf 'nem noch technischeren Niveau.",{"text":46703,"start":31470,"end":31500},"Weil ich hör total viele Podcasts selber, ich guck total viele Youtube Videos.",{"text":46705,"start":31504,"end":31547},"Jannick Kirchher ist zum Beispiel noch so 1, den ich super finde, der erklärt immer KI Paper.",{"sentences":46707,"speaker":36,"num_words":46712,"start":31550,"end":31618},[46708,46710],{"text":46709,"start":31550,"end":31577},"Und der erklärt die halt auf eine Art, dass ich was mitnehme.",{"text":46711,"start":31581,"end":31618},"Und ich hör auch viele Podcasts, die einfach eigentlich technischer sind, als es als mein Alltag",28,{"sentences":46714,"speaker":157,"num_words":137,"start":31621,"end":31622},[46715],{"text":31620,"start":31621,"end":31622},{"sentences":46717,"speaker":36,"num_words":46326,"start":31622,"end":31807},[46718,46719,46721,46723,46725],{"text":31627,"start":31622,"end":31625},{"text":46720,"start":31629,"end":31639},"Aber irgendwas nehm ich mit.",{"text":46722,"start":31639,"end":31685},"Und wenn ich halt dann 20 Prozent von dem, was besprochen wird, nicht verstehe, ist auch egal, weil keine Ahnung.",{"text":46724,"start":31685,"end":31795},"Ich merk ich merk dann, glaub ich, wenn's wichtig wird und dann hockt man sich halt hin und dann geht man wirklich 'n Paper einfach Satz für Satz durch und schaut die Begriffe nach, die man nicht versteht oder heutzutage lässt sich das von 'nem Chatbot erklären.",{"text":46726,"start":31797,"end":31807},"Und ich glaub, das reicht.",{"sentences":46728,"speaker":36,"num_words":45420,"start":31807,"end":32142},[46729,46731,46733,46735,46737],{"text":46730,"start":31807,"end":31906},"Also das ist ja auch was, was viele Menschen im Journalismus auszeichnet, wenn man wenn man einfach Bock hat, sich auch einzugraben in so Themen und Spaß dadran hat, in sone Recherche rabbit Hole zu gehen, dann kann man ja alles lernen.",{"text":46732,"start":31908,"end":31977},"Und das heißt, das ist für mich auch son bisschen die Challenge in meinem Alltag, weil also Du hast gesagt, ne, vieles lernt man ja auch irgendwie beim Doing, bei Projekten.",{"text":46734,"start":31979,"end":31998},"Ich versuch da son bisschen eine Balance zu finden.",{"text":46736,"start":31998,"end":32095},"Also ich versuch meinen meinen Alltagsjob zu machen und daneben so wohl Zeit zu haben, einfach wirklich ganz viel zu konsumieren, ganz viel zu lesen und Podcasts zu hören und Youtube Videos zu gucken über die Dinge, die ich lernen will.",{"text":46738,"start":32097,"end":32142},"Und dann versuch ich auch noch halt natürlich viel praktisch zu machen und selber einfach immer die neuesten Tools auszuprobieren.",{"sentences":46740,"speaker":36,"num_words":38,"start":32145,"end":32346},[46741,46743,46745,46747,46749],{"text":46742,"start":32145,"end":32185},"Und da ist, glaub ich, mein Glück, dass sich auch die verschiedenen Projekte, die ich mach, gegenseitig befeuern.",{"text":46744,"start":32189,"end":32237},"Weil weil dadurch, dass wir halt einfach einmal die Woche eine Folge KI Podcast machen, ich muss ja wissen, worüber ich spreche.",{"text":46746,"start":32237,"end":32257},"Das heißt, ich bin son bisschen auch gezwungen.",{"text":46748,"start":32260,"end":32304},"Ich ich muss halt meinen Tag haben, wo ich dann viel lese und einfach mitkriege, was das Neueste ist.",{"text":46750,"start":32304,"end":32346},"Und wir haben ja immer auch eine Rubrik am Ende, was hab ich diese Woche mit KI gemacht?",{"sentences":46752,"speaker":36,"num_words":45737,"start":32346,"end":32713},[46753,46755,46756,46758,46760],{"text":46754,"start":32346,"end":32382},"Also es ist so, es motiviert mich quasi selber, dass ich immer auch auch Dinge ausprobiere.",{"text":5851,"start":32386,"end":32387},{"text":46757,"start":32390,"end":32503},"Und das versuch ich ja natürlich in meinem Alltagsjob auch, also bei bei der Deutschen Welle manage ich eher KI Projekte und manage 'n Team und versuch also strukturell dem Laden zu helfen, dass dass halt die richtigen Dinge passieren, strategisch und praktisch, dass wir bei KI weiterkommen.",{"text":46759,"start":32506,"end":32604},"Aber auch da versuch ich mir einfach die Zeit zu nehmen, dass ich halt auch mal selber was ausprobiere oder dass mich dass ich mir mich halt mit jemand zusammensetze, der 'n Projekt gemacht hat und und wirklich sag, erklär mir mal, wie das funktioniert.",{"text":46761,"start":32606,"end":32713},"Und ja, und ich glaub, dadurch, dass ich halt schon lese, was quasi an der Cuting Edge passiert oder halt die Youtube Videos gucke, die mir die neuesten Paper erklären, hilft es mir halt auch dann bestimmte Fragen zu stellen an die Techies bei der Deutschen Welle.",{"sentences":46763,"speaker":36,"num_words":45369,"start":32715,"end":32857},[46764,46766],{"text":46765,"start":32715,"end":32832},"Also auch wenn ich nicht auf dem Niveau wie die dann genau verstehe, was sie machen, hilft es, glaub ich, trotzdem, dass ich quasi so diesen breiteren Blick hab und dann aus 'ner Produktsicht zum Beispiel dann noch mal nachfrage, wo wollen wir damit eigentlich hin und wie würdest Du das machen?",{"text":46767,"start":32836,"end":32857},"Und hast schon diesen oder jeden jeden Ansatz probiert.",{"sentences":46769,"speaker":157,"num_words":45711,"start":32860,"end":33070},[46770,46772,46774,46776,46778],{"text":46771,"start":32860,"end":32864},"Ja cool.",{"text":46773,"start":32864,"end":32926},"Ich find, Du hast grad irgendwie einen interessanten Satz so irgendwie gesagt so zu dem, dass viel davon auch irgendwie Marketing ist so im ganzen Bereich.",{"text":46775,"start":32926,"end":32976},"Wenn wir mal irgendwie vielleicht mal 'n bisschen jetzt auf das Thema KI irgendwie kommen, dann haben wir 1 jetzt vorhin darüber gesprochen so.",{"text":46777,"start":32976,"end":33034},"Du warst 2017 irgendwie, hast da einen neuronales Netzwerk trainiert, irgendwie Text zu generieren und gesagt, das wird niemals irgendwie sinnvoll 'n Text schreiben.",{"text":46779,"start":33034,"end":33070},"Jetzt sind wir 9 Jahre später und können's, glaub ich, sagen, so, das hat schafft's definitiv.",{"sentences":46781,"speaker":157,"num_words":46790,"start":33070,"end":33604},[46782,46784,46786,46788],{"text":46783,"start":33070,"end":33194},"Und ich glaub, wir sind uns auch wahrscheinlich alle in dieser Runde und einigen anderen Runden einig, dass dass das noch sehr viel schneller, sehr viel weitergehen wird und uns alle sehr stark beeinflussen wird in unserem Arbeitsalltag und tendenziell sehr schnell noch sehr viel mehr können wird, als es jetzt grade tut.",{"text":46785,"start":33194,"end":33287},"Und andererseits bin ich immer, wenn ich da draufblick, irgendwie so ambivalent mit diesem Teil, was davon irgendwie Marketing ist und ich mich immer so mit diesem so, ja, ich merke, was das fürn Einfluss jetzt auf mich hat.",{"text":46787,"start":33287,"end":33351},"Und ich weiß, es wird noch 'n sehr viel stärkeren Einfluss haben und ich muss mich damit beschäftigen und muss irgendwie gucken, wie sich mein Arbeitsalltag auch verändert.",{"text":46789,"start":33354,"end":33604},"Und andererseits ist irgendwie, wenn man dann Leute aus diesem Bereich hört und irgendwie auch in anderen Podcasts hört, so ich auch gerne so was wie Darry of the Hero, wo auch viele Leute sind, da wird immer von den so apokalyptischen Szenarien, es wird immer der Begriff AGI wird da irgendwie immer so viel genannt und irgendwie, wie sehr es alles disruptieren wird, was wir irgendwie tun, weil in dieser Vorstellung am Ende alles, was irgendwie Knowledge Work ist von der AI getan wird und wir am Ende nur noch mit bedingungslosem Grundeinkommen dasitzen und die AI den Rest irgendwie steuert.",222,{"sentences":46792,"speaker":157,"num_words":46803,"start":33607,"end":33881},[46793,46795,46797,46799,46801],{"text":46794,"start":33607,"end":33640},"Wo ich irgendwie so denke, ja, dass es absolut ist, geh ich total mit.",{"text":46796,"start":33640,"end":33707},"Aber irgendwie diese Vorstellung davon ist für mich immer ein so, ich packe das so stark in diese Marketingschiene, weil ich denke, da müssen noch so viel Dinge passieren.",{"text":46798,"start":33707,"end":33744},"Ich glaub auch so viel grundlegendere Dinge, dieses Szenario wirklich ein realistisches Szenario ist.",{"text":46800,"start":33744,"end":33803},"Und frag mich einfach so bei diesem Ganzen, wenn ich darauf blicke so, ist, glauben die das wirklich oder wie viel ist davon Marketing so?",{"text":46802,"start":33803,"end":33881},"Und ich würd mir so von dir eigentlich könnt ich gerne hören so, wie wie wie ist dein Blick dadrauf son bisschen auf dieses so, was davon ist Marketing, was davon ist realistisch?",115,{"sentences":46805,"speaker":157,"num_words":46812,"start":33881,"end":33987},[46806,46808,46810],{"text":46807,"start":33881,"end":33949},"Wie blickst Du so auf die nächsten Jahre und diesen Begriff, den den grade aus dieser Tech Bubble, so der AGI Begriff, wie er wie er so da draußen geprägt wird.",{"text":46809,"start":33949,"end":33968},"So hast Du da 'n ähnlichen Blick drauf?",{"text":46811,"start":33968,"end":33987},"Hast Du da 'n ambivalentteren Blick drauf?",46,{"sentences":46814,"speaker":36,"num_words":1449,"start":33989,"end":34284},[46815,46817,46819,46821,46823],{"text":46816,"start":33989,"end":34005},"Ja, also ich seh das ganz ähnlich.",{"text":46818,"start":34005,"end":34029},"Und ich frag mich, ich frag mich genau das auch immer.",{"text":46820,"start":34029,"end":34063},"Ich frag mich, was glauben die Leute im Silicon Valley zum Beispiel selber?",{"text":46822,"start":34066,"end":34164},"Ich glaub, mein Blick dadrauf ist, ich würde nie davon ausgehen, dass alle Leute ehrlich sind, weil einfach manche Leute sind einfach zu gut, zu erfolgreich darin und teilweise sehen wir auch die Beispiele, wo sie nicht ähnlich sind.",{"text":46824,"start":34164,"end":34284},"Und also auch das, was ich von innen gesehen hab, das wär total naiv zu glauben, dass Du dir nicht überlegst, was ist unsere PR Botschaft, die total unabhängig davon sein kann, was Du in Wirklichkeit die letzten paar Monate gemacht hast, sondern ne, Du erzählst immer auch eine Story.",{"sentences":46826,"speaker":36,"num_words":46837,"start":34287,"end":34530},[46827,46829,46831,46833,46835],{"text":46828,"start":34287,"end":34301},"Du überlegst immer, was macht dich erfolgreich?",{"text":46830,"start":34304,"end":34345},"Und also das, was deine Ziele sind, wir haben ja bei Amazon auch über dieses datengetriebene geredet.",{"text":46832,"start":34348,"end":34435},"Dein Ziel ist halt Marktmacht oder dein Ziel ist Return on Investment oder dein Ziel ist, welche Metrik auch immer zu optimieren, im Zweifel am Ende des Tages Geld aufm Konto von Jeff Bezos.",{"text":46834,"start":34439,"end":34467},"So, das das ist, glaub ich, das, was zählt für die meisten Menschen.",{"text":46836,"start":34467,"end":34530},"Und ich glaub, wenn Du nicht diese Denke hast, dann wirst Du auch in den meisten Fällen nicht CEO und dann kommst Du nicht so hoch.",97,{"sentences":46839,"speaker":36,"num_words":45350,"start":34533,"end":34751},[46840,46842,46844,46846,46848],{"text":46841,"start":34533,"end":34548},"Oder Du wirst nicht diese große Techfirma.",{"text":46843,"start":34551,"end":34632},"Du wirst halt nicht dieser Riese auf dem Markt, der die ganzen anderen aufkauft und der halt wirklich so den Markt für sich so behaupten kann, wenn Du nicht son bisschen diese Denke hast.",{"text":46845,"start":34632,"end":34709},"Also son Predatory Mindset irgendwie, das das klingt jetzt total wertend, aber ich mein das tatsächlich einfach halt nur auf dem auf dem faktischen Level von, was ist das Ziel?",{"text":46847,"start":34709,"end":34726},"Wo worauf arbeitest Du hin jede Woche?",{"text":46849,"start":34729,"end":34751},"Dass dein Unternehmen größer wird und die anderen Das ist",{"sentences":46851,"speaker":157,"num_words":45694,"start":34751,"end":34773},[46852],{"text":46853,"start":34751,"end":34773},"das, was man im im Tech Bereich sieht, ja.",{"sentences":46855,"speaker":36,"num_words":46865,"start":34775,"end":35248},[46856,46857,46859,46861,46863],{"text":5851,"start":34775,"end":34776},{"text":46858,"start":34776,"end":34918},"Deswegen versuch ich immer, jede Pressemitteilung, jeden Launch, alles, was so passiert im KI Bereich schon auch mit dieser kritischen Haltung zu sehen und halt zu überlegen, also einfach zu wissen, im Hinterkopf zu wissen, das, was die mir erzählen, ist nicht zwingend genau das, was die Wahrheit ist und was sie denken oder nicht die ganze Wahrheit, was sie denken.",{"text":46860,"start":34921,"end":35007},"Ich glaub aber auch, dass es schon viele Leute im im Silicon Valley oder im KI Bereich gibt, die schon auch da arbeiten, weil sie halt auch Sci Fi Nerds sind und auch einfach an an die Story glauben.",{"text":46862,"start":35009,"end":35112},"Und die die Story ist ja auch Die Story hat einen Wert an sich, also diese Erzählung oder dieser Glaube daran, dass man jetzt so das nächste große Ding der Menschheit baut und dass wir vielleicht damit auch dann was total Großartiges erreichen.",{"text":46864,"start":35115,"end":35248},"Ich glaub, das muss sich nicht ausschließen, dass die Branche an sich teilweise einfach halt wirklich ihren PR Fokus hat und ihre Ziele hat und es trotzdem aber Leute auch selber ihre eigene Story glauben oder halt auch einfach ihren Teil beitragen zu wollen, zu was, das sie denken, dass gut ist und dass das auch in Teilen gut ist.",204,{"sentences":46867,"speaker":36,"num_words":46339,"start":35250,"end":35536},[46868,46870,46872,46874,46876],{"text":46869,"start":35250,"end":35296},"Weil ich glaub auch, viele Leute können ja auch nicht oder wollen nicht an was arbeiten, an das sie nicht glauben.",{"text":46871,"start":35296,"end":35325},"Und deswegen ja, ich hab son bisschen die Vermutung, es gibt beides.",{"text":46873,"start":35325,"end":35368},"Aber was ich spannend finde an der ganzen Sache ist halt schon, dass diese Narrativ so superstark ist.",{"text":46875,"start":35370,"end":35509},"Also wenn man auch, ne, auch jetzt in den Gerichtsfällen, die's zum Beispiel gibt, wenn man dann diese E-Mails bekommt, die die hin- und herschreiben und so was da, weil man weiß einfach, wie die Enzropic Geschwister dann da drüber sprechen, wie sie von OpenAI weggegangen sind und die diese ganzen Dinge.",{"text":46877,"start":35513,"end":35536},"Es ist schon 'n superinteressantes Biotop, find ich.",{"sentences":46879,"speaker":36,"num_words":45640,"start":35536,"end":35773},[46880,46882,46884,46886,46888],{"text":46881,"start":35536,"end":35577},"Also es ist wirklich sone sone Welt, die die sich da bauen und die die sich teilweise erzählen.",{"text":46883,"start":35580,"end":35625},"Und vielleicht gibt's ja dann teilweise Zyniker und teilweise nicht, aber die Story an sich ist, glaub ich, total stark.",{"text":46885,"start":35625,"end":35665},"Wir sind die wichtigsten Menschen der Welt, weil wir bauen einfach so die nächste Stufe der Evolution.",{"text":46887,"start":35668,"end":35694},"Und das kann die Welt verändern zum Guten und zum Schlechten.",{"text":46889,"start":35694,"end":35773},"Und das, die PR Effekte kannst Du natürlich nutzen, wie Du willst, zu sagen, ah, bitte reguliert uns, weil weil das wird alles so böse, in Klammern unausgesprochen.",{"sentences":46891,"speaker":36,"num_words":46902,"start":35777,"end":36080},[46892,46894,46896,46898,46900],{"text":46893,"start":35777,"end":35819},"Macht mal Regulierung, weil wir sind jetzt schon die Größten und dann holt unsere Konkurrenz nicht auf.",{"text":46895,"start":35822,"end":35864},"Oder Du kannst sagen, bitte reguliert uns nicht, weil wir müssen noch innovativ sein und ihr dürft uns nicht bremsen.",{"text":46897,"start":35868,"end":35989},"Und Achtung, Europa reguliert ja immer nur und dann wird es aber nur dazu führen, dass sie dass sie zurückgelassen werden und oder China, Achtung China, ihr dürft uns nicht regulieren, weil sonst baut baut China zuerst die AGI und dann haben wir aber 'n Problem und so.",{"text":46899,"start":35989,"end":36034},"Ich glaub, das das wird alles für sich genutzt, aber das ist für mich irgendwie nicht so stark zu trennen.",{"text":46901,"start":36037,"end":36080},"Was ist quasi, was ist die Realität und was ist einfach eine Sci Fi Geschichte, die total gut funktioniert?",124,{"sentences":46904,"speaker":157,"num_words":45119,"start":36083,"end":36248},[46905,46906,46908,46910,46912],{"text":2849,"start":36083,"end":36084},{"text":46907,"start":36084,"end":36109},"Ja, ich glaub auch, dass die die Trennung davon ist superschwierig.",{"text":46909,"start":36109,"end":36132},"Und wie Du auch sagst, die Story funktioniert ja auch.",{"text":46911,"start":36132,"end":36189},"Und ich glaub, wir sind ja auch in 'nem Bereich, in dem wir auch nie da gewesene Fundingsummen brauchen, überhaupt diese Ziele zu erreichen.",{"text":46913,"start":36189,"end":36248},"Und ich denke, allein dafür braucht es eben diese große Story, weil einem das ist 'n bisschen schwieriger zu sagen mit, ja, wir werden schon viele Bereiche disruptieren.",{"sentences":46915,"speaker":157,"num_words":46531,"start":36248,"end":36353},[46916,46918],{"text":46917,"start":36248,"end":36286},"Einige Leute werden AI nutzen, investiert doch mal bitte mehrere 100000000000 Dollar in uns so.",{"text":46919,"start":36286,"end":36353},"Also das AGI- und Sci Fi Szenario und dass wir hier über die den die nächste Evolutionsstufe der Menschheit entscheiden, lässt sich auf jeden Fall besser besser verkaufen so.",{"sentences":46921,"speaker":36,"num_words":45840,"start":36355,"end":36427},[46922,46924,46926,46928],{"text":46923,"start":36355,"end":36371},"Ja und krass, wie gut das funktioniert.",{"text":46925,"start":36371,"end":36382},"Also das wundert mich manchmal.",{"text":46927,"start":36385,"end":36419},"Also dass es halt wirklich so, so gut funktioniert, also dass so viele Leute das kaufen.",{"text":46929,"start":36423,"end":36427},"Aber ja.",{"sentences":46931,"speaker":137,"num_words":46238,"start":36427,"end":36582},[46932,46934,46936,46938,46940],{"text":46933,"start":36427,"end":36439},"Das wollt ich auch sagen.",{"text":46935,"start":36439,"end":36490},"Ich mein, hätte man früher irgendwie diese Story mal gebracht, wahrscheinlich hätte man meistens gesagt bekommen, so ja, nee, das ist Quatsch.",{"text":46937,"start":36490,"end":36504},"Und jetzt wird's halt geglaubt.",{"text":46939,"start":36507,"end":36547},"Und ich glaub, das liegt auch viel daran, dass A1 schon so viel Disruption gebracht hat.",{"text":46941,"start":36547,"end":36582},"Also so viel, wie Du sagst, so vor 9 Jahren hättest Du nie gedacht, dass das geht.",{"sentences":46943,"speaker":137,"num_words":46837,"start":36582,"end":36817},[46944,46946,46947,46949,46951],{"text":46945,"start":36582,"end":36631},"Und sie haben's aber doch geschafft, aber sie haben auf 1 gewissen Ebene das Unmögliche geschafft oder das Undenkbare.",{"text":10065,"start":36635,"end":36636},{"text":46948,"start":36636,"end":36698},"Und ich glaube, das lässt sich dann natürlich leicht übertragen und jeder will da auch irgendwie dran Oder viele, glaub ich, finden's gut daran zu glauben.",{"text":46950,"start":36698,"end":36736},"Und wenn's Gründe dafür gibt, das zu machen, dann kann man das auch so fahren, ne.",{"text":46952,"start":36736,"end":36817},"Aber ich mein, wie mach's, also mich würd mir noch mal interessieren, wie Du's dann schaffst sozusagen, was machst Du denn mit soner Pressemitteilung, wo Du das Gefühl hast, okay, die sind nicht ganz ehrlich.",{"sentences":46954,"speaker":137,"num_words":45453,"start":36821,"end":36935},[46955,46957],{"text":46956,"start":36821,"end":36915},"Also wie findest Du dann für dich den Teil heraus, den Du irgendwie für realistisch hältst, für irgendwie Weil deine Aufgabe ist es ja auch irgendwie, daraus was zu ziehen, was Du dann weitergeben kannst, wo Du denkst, da steckt Wert drin.",{"text":46958,"start":36918,"end":36935},"So, also das find ich nicht so einfach.",{"sentences":46960,"speaker":36,"num_words":46326,"start":36938,"end":37133},[46961,46962,46964,46966,46968],{"text":2849,"start":36938,"end":36939},{"text":46963,"start":36939,"end":36966},"Ich überleg grad, ob mir ob mir 'n Beispiel einfällt.",{"text":46965,"start":36969,"end":37002},"Aber ich glaub, es hilft halt zu wissen, was auch so Corporate Floskeln sind.",{"text":46967,"start":37005,"end":37042},"Und son bisschen son Gefühl dafür zu haben, was wird gesagt und was wird auch nicht gesagt?",{"text":46969,"start":37042,"end":37133},"Also ich ich glaub, mir fallen dann Dinge auf, wenn ich eine Pressemitteilung lese oder wenn ich eine Launch Präsentation sehe, dann merkt man ja zum Beispiel, man merkt, ob die Demo live ist oder nicht.",{"sentences":46971,"speaker":36,"num_words":39,"start":37135,"end":37372},[46972,46974,46976,46978,46980],{"text":46973,"start":37135,"end":37161},"Oder man merkt, welche Cases die demonstrieren und und welche nicht.",{"text":46975,"start":37163,"end":37286},"Und dann, wenn man dazu noch das technische Verständnis hat, von was was eigentlich grade so State of the Art ist oder was sie versuchen zu sagen, was jetzt halt so der nächste Schritt ist, den sie geschafft haben, dann kann man, glaub ich, son bisschen einschätzen, wie viel wie viel Bullshit ist da dabei?",{"text":46977,"start":37289,"end":37320},"Oder ja, oder präsentieren sie jetzt was, was sie wirklich fertig gebaut haben?",{"text":46979,"start":37320,"end":37365},"Oder präsentieren sie jetzt wieder eine Story, die dann halt in 6 Monaten launchen wird oder coming soon Mhm.",{"text":46981,"start":37367,"end":37372},"Launchen wird.",{"sentences":46983,"speaker":36,"num_words":46598,"start":37375,"end":37635},[46984,46986,46988,46990,46992],{"text":46985,"start":37375,"end":37430},"Und genau, ich versuch das schon einfach son bisschen zu dekonstruieren, was man auch ganz gut machen kann mit Benchmarks zum Beispiel, ne.",{"text":46987,"start":37430,"end":37476},"Das halt, ich glaub, man muss einfach immer quasi versuchen, ein Level dahinterzugehen und zu fragen, was sagen sie?",{"text":46989,"start":37476,"end":37502},"Und was ist aber, wenn ich nachfragen würde, was wär dahinter?",{"text":46991,"start":37505,"end":37608},"Wenn ich wenn die sagen, wir haben die Halluzinationen reduziert von 7 Prozent auf 5 Prozent in dem Bereich so und so oder wir haben bei irgend 'nem Benchmark bessere Zahlen bekommen, dann siehst Du ja, was sie quasi dahinter hängen an Quellen.",{"text":46993,"start":37611,"end":37635},"Ganz, also haben die überhaupt eine Definition von Halluzinationen gegeben?",{"sentences":46995,"speaker":36,"num_words":45865,"start":37635,"end":37774},[46996,46998,47000,47002,47004],{"text":46997,"start":37635,"end":37658},"Hat sich die Definition vielleicht geändert seit der letzten Pressemitteilung?",{"text":46999,"start":37661,"end":37704},"Und das das find ich irgendwie auch so lustig im KI Bereich, weil ganz viel hat ja so diesen Paperaufbau.",{"text":47001,"start":37707,"end":37756},"Also ganz viel ist ja, ich immer nicht, wie man das ausspricht, dieses, also also diese Latex Paper.",{"text":47003,"start":37759,"end":37764},"Ja, ja.",{"text":47005,"start":37764,"end":37774},"Die so wissenschaftlich aussehen.",{"sentences":47007,"speaker":36,"num_words":45158,"start":37777,"end":37999},[47008,47009,47011,47013,47015],{"text":2849,"start":37777,"end":37778},{"text":47010,"start":37781,"end":37797},"Aber ganz oft ist da ja nichts dahinter.",{"text":47012,"start":37797,"end":37951},"Wenn Du wirklich guckst, was da ist denn in den Fußnoten, dann ist sind das irgendwelche, keine Ahnung, zitieren die dann 'n Blogartikel von sich selber oder oder in der Fußnote ist eigentlich ja dann nur noch ja keine Quelle, sondern einfach nur noch 'n Satz, den sie halt nicht in den normalen Text reingeschrieben haben, der aber eigentlich nicht mehr Kontext gibt.",{"text":47014,"start":37954,"end":37966},"Und das ist, glaub ich, wichtig.",{"text":47016,"start":37966,"end":37999},"Ich ich muss ja ganz oft überhaupt nicht sagen, das, was die sagen, ist falsch.",{"sentences":47018,"speaker":36,"num_words":46326,"start":38001,"end":38182},[47019,47021,47023,47025,47027],{"text":47020,"start":38001,"end":38034},"Sondern ich muss ja nur einschätzen können, wissen wir 100 Prozent, dass das richtig ist?",{"text":47022,"start":38034,"end":38053},"Oder muss man da 'n bisschen vorsichtig sein?",{"text":47024,"start":38053,"end":38134},"Und und dann am Ende können wir alle nur spekulieren, weil also das hab ich oft genug bewiesen, was in 'nem halben Jahr ist oder was in 'nem Jahr ist, das weiß ich auch nicht.",{"text":47026,"start":38136,"end":38165},"Aber ich glaub, man kann halt ganz gut gucken, wie ist die Sachlage?",{"text":47028,"start":38165,"end":38182},"Was sind die Beweise, die wir haben?",{"sentences":47030,"speaker":36,"num_words":45453,"start":38182,"end":38305},[47031,47033,47035,47037,47039],{"text":47032,"start":38182,"end":38202},"Und was was wissen wir, was jetzt schon funktioniert?",{"text":47034,"start":38204,"end":38249},"Und dann kann man's ausprobieren und selber testen oder halt die Testberichte von anderen Leuten lesen und sich angucken.",{"text":47036,"start":38249,"end":38275},"Und dann dann merkt man ja schnell den Gap Mhm.",{"text":47038,"start":38277,"end":38303},"Zwischen dem, was versprochen wird und dem, was möglich ist, ja.",{"text":18573,"start":38303,"end":38305},{"sentences":47041,"speaker":157,"num_words":45088,"start":38307,"end":38516},[47042,47044,47046,47048,47050],{"text":47043,"start":38307,"end":38327},"hast Du grad gesagt, Du kannst auch noch spekulieren.",{"text":47045,"start":38327,"end":38350},"Du weißt auch nicht, was in 'nem halben Jahr ist.",{"text":47047,"start":38350,"end":38400},"Gut, dass jetzt meine nächste und gegen einen Frage auch eher in die Richtung geht, so was wirklich 'n spekulieren.",{"text":47049,"start":38402,"end":38463},"Weil wir haben jetzt son bisschen die Brille hin zu und ist diese Story irgendwie, also ist das nur 'n Marketingding oder ist das 'n realistisches Szenario?",{"text":47051,"start":38463,"end":38516},"Andererseits wissen wir, Garen und ich hier als Developer, unsere unser Alltag hat sich auf jeden Fall stark verändert durch AI.",{"sentences":47053,"speaker":157,"num_words":45171,"start":38520,"end":38866},[47054,47056,47058,47060,47062],{"text":47055,"start":38520,"end":38537},"Dein Alltag, weil wie Text generiert wird total.",{"text":47057,"start":38537,"end":38582},"Du hast schon an einem Profession, dass Du vielleicht mal, dass Du Rapperin bist an die KI verloren.",{"text":47059,"start":38585,"end":38645},"Und vielleicht kannst Du uns mal so, was glaubst Du, wenn wir jetzt mal eher nicht in 4, 5 Jahren blicken, sondern irgendwie auf dieses Jahr?",{"text":47061,"start":38645,"end":38763},"So in welchen Bereichen werden wir als Nächstes so Disruption erleben, wie wir's vielleicht jetzt grade hier in bei uns bei dir, was jetzt wirklich Textgenerierung angeht, was dein täglich Brot ist und bei uns Codegenerierung, was ja auch nur eine Form von Text ist.",{"text":47063,"start":38763,"end":38866},"Also was was glaubst Du, sind so die nächsten Bereiche, die sich die großen AI Firmen irgendwie angehen, wo sie sagen, jetzt haben sie ja grade angefangen diesen Jahres mit Co Work, also mehr irgendwie dann auch vielleicht in die Projektmanagementbereich zu gehen.",{"sentences":47065,"speaker":157,"num_words":45865,"start":38866,"end":38991},[47066,47068],{"text":47067,"start":38866,"end":38956},"So, wenn wir jetzt mal doch mal probieren, ein bisschen in die Zukunft zu blicken, so, was sind so die nächsten Bereiche, die da von, wo AI noch mehr Einzug erhalten wird in den nächsten Monaten, in diesem Jahr?",{"text":47069,"start":38956,"end":38991},"So, was welche Bereiche werden dann darüber so sprechen, wie wir als Developer darüber reden?",{"sentences":47071,"speaker":36,"num_words":47082,"start":38991,"end":39459},[47072,47074,47076,47078,47080],{"text":47073,"start":38991,"end":39080},"Du hast was ganz Wichtiges angesprochen, nämlich die Bereiche, in denen das gut funktioniert grade oder in denen wir die die krassesten Fortschritte, die krasseste Disruption auch sehen, ist alles, was mit Text zu tun hat.",{"text":47075,"start":39080,"end":39122},"Also Coding funktioniert ja deswegen besonders gut, weil es auch eine sehr strukturierte Form von Text ist.",{"text":47077,"start":39122,"end":39354},"Also wenn ich eine Maschine habe, die halt den nächsten Drucken vorhersagt, die die Textmengen analysieren kann und verstehen kann, was für Zusammenhänge gibt's da, dann ist dann ist eigentlich klar, dass Coding gut funktioniert, weil der der ganze Sinn von Code ist ja, dass man 'n Text schreibt, der möglichst strukturiert ist, damit man halt damit man es schafft, dass eine Maschine damit arbeitet und damit nachvollziehbar ist und damit's, also damit Du quasi den Text verbindest mit was Physischem, was dann am Ende die Elektronen auf 'nem Chip sind.",{"text":47079,"start":39354,"end":39423},"Also da da ist quasi die Verbindung zwischen der echten Welt und dem Text sehr viel verlässlicher, sehr viel direkter als bei vielen anderen Formen von Text ist.",{"text":47081,"start":39425,"end":39459},"Und das das andere Extrem, was auch gut funktioniert, ist halt das der kreative Text.",187,{"sentences":47084,"speaker":36,"num_words":45420,"start":39459,"end":39795},[47085,47087,47089,47091,47093],{"text":47086,"start":39459,"end":39625},"Deswegen haben wir ja auch eine Kolumne damals gemacht und nicht eine Nachrichtentext zum Beispiel, weil je subjektiver was ist oder je eher es einfach darum geht, dass der Text gut klingt oder dass es Vibes sind oder dass ja, dass es Geschwafel ist ehrlicherweise, desto weniger schlimm ist es, dass Du nicht terministisches System hast, sondern es ist halt einfach, ja, wenn's gut klingt, dann hat es seinen Wert.",{"text":47088,"start":39625,"end":39686},"Und da gibt's viele Formen von Text und auch nicht nur Text, sondern auch Musik und Bilder, wo's halt einfach reicht, wenn der Wahl stimmt.",{"text":47090,"start":39689,"end":39720},"Und wenn's am Ende so klingt wie 'n Schlager, dann ist es 'n Schlager.",{"text":47092,"start":39720,"end":39755},"Und dann ist es egal, ob den Schlager eine KI geschrieben hat oder oder 'n Mensch.",{"text":47094,"start":39758,"end":39795},"Und das heißt, ich glaub, das ist wichtig zu verstehen, wenn man überlegt, wo wo wird das hingehen?",{"sentences":47096,"speaker":36,"num_words":39,"start":39798,"end":40044},[47097,47099,47101,47103,47105],{"text":47098,"start":39798,"end":39876},"Das Spannendste finde ich, dass man halt jetzt immer stärker merkt, je größer die Kontextfenster werden und je besser auch die das Management die Sprachmodelle oder die Foundation Modelle drumrum funktionieren.",{"text":47100,"start":39880,"end":39908},"Man merkt halt, wie viel Pseudodenken die Arbeit mit Text ermöglicht.",{"text":47102,"start":39911,"end":39962},"Weil wenn ich 'n Projekt manage und mir überleg, was ist mein nächster Schritt, dann kann ich das auch in Text ausdrücken.",{"text":47104,"start":39965,"end":40014},"Also dann kann ich das Nicht jeder Mensch denkt so und nicht alles, was wir denken, ist ist so in in Text auszudrücken.",{"text":47106,"start":40017,"end":40044},"Aber ganz viel von dem, was ich in meinem Alltag mache, ist ja,",{"sentences":47108,"speaker":157,"num_words":137,"start":40046,"end":40047},[47109],{"text":418,"start":40046,"end":40047},{"sentences":47111,"speaker":36,"num_words":47122,"start":40047,"end":40224},[47112,47114,47116,47118,47120],{"text":47113,"start":40047,"end":40075},"ich so paraphrasieren will, ah, ich habe eine E-Mail bekommen.",{"text":47115,"start":40075,"end":40099},"Die E-Mail sagt mir, dass Person x y krank ist.",{"text":47117,"start":40101,"end":40119},"Das heißt, was muss ich jetzt als Nächstes tun?",{"text":47119,"start":40119,"end":40180},"Ah, ich sollte jemand finden, der die Vertretung von der Person ist und die dann fragen, ob sie Zeit hat, das Projekt weiterzuführen, so.",{"text":47121,"start":40182,"end":40224},"Also oder in irgend 'ner Form kann ich ja in in Worten ausdrücken, was sinnvoll der nächste Schritte ist.",72,{"sentences":47124,"speaker":36,"num_words":47135,"start":40224,"end":40629},[47125,47127,47129,47131,47133],{"text":47126,"start":40224,"end":40251},"Und da ist Sprache quasi nicht so einfach zu unterscheiden von Denken.",{"text":47128,"start":40255,"end":40343},"Und das ist das, was wir jetzt grade sehen mit diesen argentischen Systemen, was so spannend ist, was mich auch wiederum überrascht hat, wie gut das funktioniert oder wie schnell das quasi auf dieser Skala auch auch möglich ist.",{"text":47130,"start":40343,"end":40381},"Also dass man einfach auch diese Rechenleistung, diese Kontextfenster dahinterhauen kann und dass das geht.",{"text":47132,"start":40383,"end":40529},"Da ich ich glaub, Du hast es angedeutet, da glaub ich, passiert jetzt halt viel, dass man versuchen wird, verschiedene Systeme miteinander zu verknüpfen und den KI Systemen möglichst Zugang zu geben zu allen möglichen Interfaces, dass sie halt so diese Art von Projektmanagement machen können oder halt oder ja, in diesen menschlichen Bereich von Knowledgework irgendwie reingehen können.",{"text":47134,"start":40529,"end":40629},"Weil ne, dass sie 'n Text zusammenfassen können, weiß man schon, dass sie irgendwie auch grob was recherchieren können im Internet, dass sie dann verstehen können, Zusammenhänge herstellen können zwischen dem, was sie recherchiert haben und da irgendwie 'n Output generieren, cool.",167,{"sentences":47137,"speaker":36,"num_words":47148,"start":40631,"end":40807},[47138,47140,47142,47144,47146],{"text":47139,"start":40631,"end":40698},"Ich glaub, dass dieser nächste Schritt schon sehr schwierig sein kann, weil wir jetzt halt an den Punkt kommen, wo wir nicht diese einfache Kette haben zwischen Input und Output.",{"text":47141,"start":40701,"end":40737},"Also in dem Moment, wo's eine Zusammenfassung geht, dann brauch ich eben nur das Sprachmodell.",{"text":47143,"start":40740,"end":40777},"Ich muss nur den Input reingeben, das Sprachmodell macht sein Ding und dann kommt der Output raus.",{"text":47145,"start":40779,"end":40792},"Bei Coding ist es ja auch so.",{"text":47147,"start":40792,"end":40807},"Ich hab 'n total begrenztes Umfeld.",75,{"sentences":47150,"speaker":36,"num_words":47161,"start":40807,"end":41230},[47151,47153,47155,47157,47159],{"text":47152,"start":40807,"end":40913},"Also ich hab einfach 'n 'n Datagesystem, das ist egal, wie viele Dateien das sind, aber die liegen, die können alle in einem Ordner liegen und dann kann die KI da drauf zugreifen und der Text an sich reicht, Arbeit damit zu machen.",{"text":47154,"start":40915,"end":40987},"Wenn wir jetzt in andere Bereiche der Knowledgework gehen, in zum Beispiel Projektmanagement, Dann hab ich halt plötzlich aber nicht mehr nur sonen begrenzten Bereich, sondern hab ich total viele Unbekannte.",{"text":47156,"start":40990,"end":41081},"Dann hab ich die ganzen Menschen, die auch auch offline miteinander reden, die auch krank sind, die auch sich aufm Flur treffen, die teilweise in dem Lateinmanagementsystem arbeiten, indem sie arbeiten sollen, aber teilweise auch nicht.",{"text":47158,"start":41083,"end":41144},"Dann hab ich die ganzen verschiedenen Softwareschnittstellen von ganz unterschiedlichen Anbietern, wo's dann darauf ankommt, ob die KI die Schnittstelle sinnvoll nutzen kann.",{"text":47160,"start":41144,"end":41230},"Und da reden wir ja auch grade viel drüber, was diese Schnittstellen der Zukunft sein können, wie man die anpassen muss, was man quasi für Protokolle dahinterlegt, damit die KIs möglichst Zugang zu diesen ganzen Dingen kriegen.",170,{"sentences":47163,"speaker":36,"num_words":47174,"start":41233,"end":41492},[47164,47166,47168,47170,47172],{"text":47165,"start":41233,"end":41256},"Aber ich glaub, das ist was, was noch unterschätzt wird.",{"text":47167,"start":41258,"end":41348},"Und jetzt merkte, ich zöger aber, das hat, glaub ich, wieder mal sone Prognose wird, das es kann sein, dass es dann alles schneller geht und dann mehr Geld und mehr mehr Leistung dahinter gepackt wird, als ich jetzt denke.",{"text":47169,"start":41351,"end":41371},"Aber ich glaub, da ist schon noch einiges zu tun.",{"text":47171,"start":41371,"end":41442},"Also bis man unser unser ganzes menschlichen menschliches, bis man unser ganzes menschliches Arbeiten so weit umgestellt hat, dass es wirklich effektiv ist, dass KI Systeme dadrin arbeiten.",{"text":47173,"start":41446,"end":41492},"Und dass man dann noch das auf eine Art geschafft hat, dass es einigermaßen sicher ist und vor geschützt ist.",108,{"sentences":47176,"speaker":36,"num_words":45158,"start":41492,"end":41741},[47177,47179,47181,47183,47185],{"text":47178,"start":41492,"end":41522},"Da sind, glaub ich, noch einige große Probleme, die man lösen muss.",{"text":47180,"start":41522,"end":41602},"Was nicht heißt, dass nicht so Molt Bots und und ähnliche Systeme auch total total trennten können in Bereichen, wo einem halt die Sicherheit vielleicht nicht so wichtig ist.",{"text":47182,"start":41604,"end":41693},"Aber da da seh ich jetzt jedenfalls dieses Jahr noch nicht irgendwie die große Revolution und das totale Umkrempeln unserer Arbeitswelt, weil am Ende geht's auch Sicherheit, es geht auch Kosten Nutzen.",{"text":47184,"start":41696,"end":41729},"Wir sehen, dass das ja auch 'n Bereich, das ja total stark subventioniert ist.",{"text":47186,"start":41729,"end":41741},"Das habt ihr auch angesprochen, ne.",{"sentences":47188,"speaker":36,"num_words":46670,"start":41741,"end":41946},[47189,47191],{"text":47190,"start":41741,"end":41921},"Also da einfach die, was ich halt für die Investments grade für eine Story brauche, ist was anderes, als was ich am Ende in 5 Jahren brauchen werde, wenn ich wirklich will, dass das nachhaltig finanzierbar ist und dass ich mir auch den Strom leisten kann für das Datencenter und nicht grade nur mit dem Kapital, das ich habe, vielleicht irgendwie quer finanziere, dass ich halt möglichst die größte Marketsare bekomme.",{"text":47192,"start":41924,"end":41946},"Sehr lange Antwort, keine wirkliche Prognose, sorry, aber",{"sentences":47194,"speaker":157,"num_words":47205,"start":41948,"end":42495},[47195,47197,47199,47201,47203],{"text":47196,"start":41948,"end":42067},"Aber ja, ich mein, grade so in diese dieser Arbeitsprozesse irgendwie reingeht, so da würde ich ja allein auch aus der These mitgehen, dass man sagt, das ist ja auch wieder eine Anreizfrage son bisschen, ne, weil Du meinst ja auch für die Story, die die großen Unternehmen brauchen.",{"text":47198,"start":42067,"end":42154},"Klar, sie müssen irgendwann rentabel werden, aber erst mal müssen sie ja auch das erste Mal, das, was sie jetzt auf dem Weg dahin beweisen müssen, ist, dass sie überhaupt dieses Wachstum bekommen, was ihre Einnahmenseite angeht.",{"text":47200,"start":42154,"end":42276},"Und wenn man sie einfach anschaut so, dass aktuell so was jetzt Subskriptions angeht und so was einfach der größte Kuchen, der zu holen ist, immer noch ist, wenn man Enterprise Software irgendwie herstellt und sagt, wenn man sich anschaut, wie viel über Teams gemacht wird, irgendwie Office 365.",{"text":47202,"start":42279,"end":42319},"Das sind alles diese Tools, die irgendwie wohl dann im großen Scale Subscriptions abgeschlossen werden.",{"text":47204,"start":42319,"end":42495},"Und ich glaube, das ist einfach der Markt, in dem die AI Unternehmen auch so den nächsten großen Teil vom Kuchen bekommen können, in ihrer Story halt genug Futter zu haben, dass sie sagen können, hier, schaut mal, wir sind wieder 10 x gewachsen, so unsere Story funktioniert weiterhin, AGI als die Karotte da vorne und alle Zwischenschritte, sozusagen den das einfach nur das den Umsatz wachsen lassen zu können.",220,{"sentences":47207,"speaker":157,"num_words":47211,"start":42495,"end":42586},[47208,47210],{"text":47209,"start":42495,"end":42582},"Deswegen glaub ich allein der Anreiz stimmt auch für die Unternehmen, dass sie genau da hingehen wollen, weil ich glaube, da ist der nächste große Bereich, in dem sich ein Kuchen, dem es gilt, sich einen Kuchen aufzuteilen.",{"text":23728,"start":42582,"end":42586},39,{"sentences":47213,"speaker":36,"num_words":36,"start":42588,"end":42592},[47214],{"text":47215,"start":42588,"end":42592},"auf jeden",{"sentences":47217,"speaker":157,"num_words":45556,"start":42592,"end":42600},[47218],{"text":47219,"start":42592,"end":42600},"Fall mitgehen, wann",{"sentences":47221,"speaker":36,"num_words":45268,"start":42602,"end":42614},[47222],{"text":47223,"start":42602,"end":42614},"total kluger Gedanke, ja.",{"sentences":47225,"speaker":157,"num_words":45337,"start":42616,"end":42850},[47226,47228,47230,47232,47234],{"text":47227,"start":42616,"end":42633},"Ob das dieses Jahr ist, werden wir sehen.",{"text":47229,"start":42635,"end":42690},"Wenn wir auf die Zeit blicken, ist leider, ich wir ich glaub, Gordon und ich könnten noch ewig mit dir darüber weiterreden.",{"text":47231,"start":42690,"end":42712},"Wir kommen auch 'n bisschen ans Ende der Zeit.",{"text":47233,"start":42712,"end":42747},"Beim CTO Special hören wir meistens mit der Frage auf, dann noch mal die Frage zurückzustellen.",{"text":47235,"start":42750,"end":42850},"Und zwar, gibt es irgendeine Frage, die wir diesem Gespräch nicht gestellt haben, wo Du dachtest, ah, wenn ich mit Fabio und Garet in diesem Techpodcast rede, dann müssen wir auf jeden Fall oder werden wir auf jeden Fall darüber reden.",{"sentences":47237,"speaker":157,"num_words":45826,"start":42850,"end":42938},[47238,47240],{"text":47239,"start":42850,"end":42901},"Gibt es irgendwas, wo's wo Du das Gefühl hast, so Fabi Gareth, die Frage hättet ihr mir noch stellen sollen.",{"text":47241,"start":42905,"end":42938},"Falls ja, ist das deine Chance, sie dir selbst zu stellen oder den Raum zu",{"sentences":47243,"speaker":36,"num_words":47254,"start":42940,"end":43024},[47244,47246,47248,47250,47252],{"text":47245,"start":42940,"end":42957},"Ihr wart ihr wart total gute Interview.",{"text":47247,"start":42957,"end":42974},"Also es hat mir mega Spaß gemacht.",{"text":47249,"start":42974,"end":42992},"Ich mir fällt jetzt auch keine Frage ein.",{"text":47251,"start":42992,"end":43010},"Ich find auch die letzte Frage sehr gut.",{"text":47253,"start":43012,"end":43024},"Vielleicht darf ich noch Dinge empfehlen.",36,{"sentences":47256,"speaker":157,"num_words":47263,"start":43027,"end":43062},[47257,47259,47261],{"text":47258,"start":43027,"end":43038},"Was magst Du uns empfehlen?",{"text":47260,"start":43038,"end":43047},"Ja, Marie, sehr gerne.",{"text":47262,"start":43047,"end":43062},"Gib mir son paar Empfehlungen.",14,{"sentences":47265,"speaker":36,"num_words":45240,"start":43065,"end":43292},[47266,47267,47269,47271,47273],{"text":2849,"start":43065,"end":43066},{"text":47268,"start":43069,"end":43116},"Also es ist jetzt spontan, hab ich jetzt nichts vorbereitet, aber ich hau einfach mal 'n paar Sachen raus.",{"text":47270,"start":43116,"end":43240},"Ich folge Joanna Brison total gerne, ist eine Professorin an der Hürerty School, die auch sehr gut diese analysiert und auch was die Politik und die Regulierung und die quasi demokratischen Strömungen dahinter, nicht demokratischen, die demokratischen Implikationen, die das gesellschaftliche Drumherum angeht.",{"text":47272,"start":43242,"end":43260},"Das ist auf jeden Fall eine eine Folgeempfehlung.",{"text":47274,"start":43263,"end":43292},"Ich hab ja eine Kircher erwähnt, dessen Youtube Videos ich mag.",{"sentences":47276,"speaker":36,"num_words":45812,"start":43295,"end":43454},[47277,47279,47281,47283,47285],{"text":47278,"start":43295,"end":43327},"Ich finde Arvin Sarannajan und Sergeasz Capur total gut.",{"text":47280,"start":43327,"end":43355},"Die haben einen Blog, die haben auch 'n Buch geschrieben über KI.",{"text":47282,"start":43358,"end":43373},"Und irgendwie wollt ich noch unbedingt empfehlen.",{"text":47284,"start":43373,"end":43421},"Ah ja, ich les grad das Buch von Audrey Tang, das die ehemalige Digitalministerin von Taiwan.",{"text":47286,"start":43424,"end":43454},"Das Buch heißt Plurality und es ist auch 'n Open Source Projekt.",{"sentences":47288,"speaker":36,"num_words":45281,"start":43454,"end":43687},[47289,47291,47293,47295,47297],{"text":47290,"start":43454,"end":43475},"Also es wurde ist 'n Open Source geschriebenes Buch.",{"text":47292,"start":43478,"end":43525},"Und da geht's darum, wie man Technologie unter anderem KI einsetzen kann halt für eine bessere, demokratischere, freiheitliche Zukunft.",{"text":47294,"start":43528,"end":43619},"Das find ich total inspirierend, weil das ist genau das, was wir brauchen eigentlich, ne, wenn wir halt so diese Storys haben, die halt geprägt sind von einfach 'nem sehr bestimmten Milieu, hauptsächlich ins Silicon Valley, 'n bisschen auch in China.",{"text":47296,"start":43622,"end":43663},"Was deren Vorstellung von der Welt ist, ist nicht die Vorstellung von den meisten Menschen auf der Welt, glaub ich.",{"text":47298,"start":43666,"end":43687},"Aber es fehlen ja oft son bisschen zu Gegennarrative.",{"sentences":47300,"speaker":36,"num_words":47305,"start":43691,"end":43845},[47301,47303],{"text":47302,"start":43691,"end":43760},"Was könnten wir denn noch machen, anstatt einfach immer weiter diese Tech Giganten zu befeuern und immer weiter zu zentralisieren und einfach nur am Ende zu kaufen, was die gebaut haben.",{"text":47304,"start":43762,"end":43845},"Und da find ich dieses Buch, bin grad in der Mitte, aber kann ich schon jetzt sagen, find ich total beflügelnd so, einfach noch mal zu denken, was man mit Technologie noch alles machen könnte.",66,{"sentences":47307,"speaker":157,"num_words":45565,"start":43848,"end":43885},[47308,47310,47312],{"text":47309,"start":43848,"end":43852},"Sehr cool.",{"text":47311,"start":43852,"end":43857},"Vielen Dank.",{"text":47313,"start":43857,"end":43885},"Ich hab probiert, alles aufzuschreiben, weil ich werd dich im Nachhinein",{"sentences":47315,"speaker":36,"num_words":45526,"start":43885,"end":43911},[47316],{"text":47317,"start":43885,"end":43911},"noch mal unbedingt Ich bin ja auch nicht.",{"sentences":47319,"speaker":157,"num_words":45812,"start":43914,"end":44052},[47320,47322,47324],{"text":47321,"start":43914,"end":43932},"Wahrscheinlich so ist alles perfekt runtergeschrieben.",{"text":47323,"start":43936,"end":43955},"Das heißt, wir packen das alles in die Shownotes.",{"text":47325,"start":43955,"end":44052},"Und dann werb ich jetzt vielleicht auch noch eine Empfehlung mit dazu, weil es wird bestimmt der eine oder andere sich gefragt haben, was war Fabis komische Anspielung mit dem, dass die Rap Karriere von Marie wegen KI irgendwie gestorben ist?",{"sentences":47327,"speaker":36,"num_words":45268,"start":44055,"end":44065},[47328],{"text":47329,"start":44055,"end":44065},"Kauft mein Rap Album.",{"sentences":47331,"speaker":157,"num_words":46670,"start":44068,"end":44249},[47332,47334,47336,47338,47340],{"text":47333,"start":44068,"end":44078},"Genau, kauft das Rap Album.",{"text":47335,"start":44078,"end":44119},"Aber wenn ihr die Auflösung wollt, dann hört doch gern mal in den KI Podcast rein von Marie.",{"text":47337,"start":44119,"end":44174},"Wir packen mal den Link zu der Folge, wo das geklärt wird, was es damit auf sich hat, einfach auch mal in die Shownotes.",{"text":47339,"start":44176,"end":44187},"Also hört da sehr gerne rein.",{"text":47341,"start":44187,"end":44249},"Ich hab's ja auch schon mal gesagt, so ich auf meinem Arbeitswegörchen auch sehr gerne mal, weil's für mich auch gute Einordnung einfach noch mal gibt.",{"sentences":47343,"speaker":157,"num_words":741,"start":44249,"end":44391},[47344,47346],{"text":47345,"start":44249,"end":44371},"Und es ist bisschen anders eingeordnet, als wenn man sich sonen Techgy Podcast anguckt, wo es nur diese Details geht, sondern für mich so, dass gute Detailstufe und trotzdem auf 'ner Flughöhe, die mir irgendwie noch mal viel neue Inspiration auch gibt, auch wenn wir uns hier über KI unterhalten.",{"text":47347,"start":44371,"end":44391},"Deswegen da definitiv die Empfehlung noch mal für deinen Podcast.",{"sentences":47349,"speaker":36,"num_words":45060,"start":44391,"end":44456},[47350,47352],{"text":47351,"start":44391,"end":44399},"Vielen, vielen Dank.",{"text":47353,"start":44399,"end":44456},"Und dann sag ich, ich hör weiter den programmierbare Podcast und gib dem gute Bewertungen und schreib Fabio Garald nette E-Mails.",{"sentences":47355,"speaker":157,"num_words":47366,"start":44460,"end":44604},[47356,47358,47360,47362,47364],{"text":47357,"start":44460,"end":44495},"Das da hast Du schon auch das jetzt am Ende gebracht, was wir sonst auch machen.",{"text":47359,"start":44495,"end":44519},"Also die E-Mail-Podcast at Programmier Punkt bar.",{"text":47361,"start":44522,"end":44545},"Marie, vielen, vielen Dank, dass Du dir Zeit genommen hast.",{"text":47363,"start":44545,"end":44578},"Das hat sehr, sehr viel Spaß gemacht, mit mir da mit dir darüber zu reden.",{"text":47365,"start":44578,"end":44604},"Wir hätten die Zeit auf jeden Fall noch weiterführen können, Echt",59,{"sentences":47368,"speaker":36,"num_words":36,"start":44604,"end":44612},[47369],{"text":47370,"start":44604,"end":44612},"zu landen.",{"sentences":47372,"speaker":157,"num_words":45556,"start":44616,"end":44624},[47373],{"text":47374,"start":44616,"end":44624},"Gut anderthalb Stunden.",{"sentences":47376,"speaker":36,"num_words":47379,"start":44624,"end":44644},[47377],{"text":47378,"start":44624,"end":44644},"Hat mir Megaspaß gemacht, genau, gerne wieder.",7,{"sentences":47381,"speaker":137,"num_words":45999,"start":44647,"end":44706},[47382],{"text":47383,"start":44647,"end":44706},"Ich glaub, das ist 1 der ersten Podcasts, wo ich mit mehr Fragen irgendwie rausgehe, als ich reinkomme, weil ich so viele Themen spannend finde und",{"sentences":47385,"speaker":36,"num_words":45565,"start":44709,"end":44743},[47386,47388],{"text":47387,"start":44709,"end":44732},"Ich könnt da echt ernsthaft noch ewig mit euch weiterreden.",{"text":47389,"start":44734,"end":44743},"Wo sitzt ihr noch mal?",{"sentences":47391,"speaker":157,"num_words":45556,"start":44746,"end":44755},[47392],{"text":47393,"start":44746,"end":44755},"In Bad Nauheim.",{"sentences":47395,"speaker":36,"num_words":45565,"start":44759,"end":44793},[47396,47397,47399],{"text":26955,"start":44759,"end":44760},{"text":47398,"start":44760,"end":44776},"Da war ich, glaub ich, noch nie.",{"text":47400,"start":44776,"end":44793},"Aber wenn ich da mal hinkommen bin,",{"sentences":47402,"speaker":157,"num_words":36,"start":44793,"end":44799},[47403],{"text":47404,"start":44793,"end":44799},"bin ich",{"sentences":47406,"speaker":36,"num_words":45268,"start":44799,"end":44812},[47407,47409],{"text":47408,"start":44799,"end":44807},"aber wieder gegessen.",{"text":44814,"start":44807,"end":44812},{"sentences":47411,"speaker":137,"num_words":45268,"start":44812,"end":44826},[47412,47414],{"text":47413,"start":44812,"end":44820},"ja, Frankfurt.",{"text":47415,"start":44820,"end":44826},"Sehr gerne.",{"sentences":47417,"speaker":157,"num_words":47426,"start":44826,"end":44911},[47418,47419,47420,47422,47424],{"text":2849,"start":44826,"end":44829},{"text":2849,"start":44829,"end":44832},{"text":47421,"start":44832,"end":44839},"Sehr, sehr gerne.",{"text":47423,"start":44839,"end":44866},"Ansonsten auch, wenn man, aber das können wir im Auft sprechen.",{"text":47425,"start":44866,"end":44911},"Wir hören noch drin, wir haben noch große Konferenzen, wo Du auch sehr gern gesehener Gast wärst.",33,{"sentences":47428,"speaker":157,"num_words":45608,"start":44911,"end":44999},[47429,47431,47433,47434,47436],{"text":47430,"start":44911,"end":44941},"Das können wir vielleicht im Nachgang noch mal 'n bisschen bisschen besprechen.",{"text":47432,"start":44941,"end":44974},"Also wir wir hätten auf jeden Fall Lust, uns da weiter drüber zu unterhalten.",{"text":44978,"start":44976,"end":44977},{"text":47435,"start":44980,"end":44986},"Marie, dank dir.",{"text":47437,"start":44986,"end":44999},"Noch 'n schönen Tag.",{"sentences":47439,"speaker":157,"num_words":45573,"start":44999,"end":45049},[47440,47442,47444,47445,47446],{"text":47441,"start":44999,"end":45030},"Euch wie immer vielen Dank fürs Zuhören und bis zum nächsten Mal.",{"text":47443,"start":45030,"end":45037},"Macht's gut.",{"text":45042,"start":45040,"end":45041},{"text":45042,"start":45044,"end":45045},{"text":45050,"start":45045,"end":45049},[47448,47462,47469,47486,47495,47509,47552,47604,47634,47666,47675,47684,47761,47793,47863,47957,48047,48098,48125,48158,48172,48191,48213,48222,48233,48241,48247,48251,48266,48272,48301,48307,48318,48346,48364,48372,48382,48389,48429,48443,48447,48483,48501,48539,48556,48580,48771,48782,48790,48818,48838,48870,48880,48895,48924,48938,48959,48982,48997,49004,49008,49038,49046,49073,49093,49137,49190,49281,49315,49336,49345,49358,49377,49412,49434,49457,49466,49479,49511,49524,49555,49603,49623,49627,49641,49667,49686,49714,49744,49754,49769,49785,49807,49837,49851,49915,50100,50116,50139,50152,50193,50218,50227,50263,50269,50330,50346,50396,50405,50422,50458,50483,50490,50502,50509,50533,50545,50558,50567,50578,50586,50600,50638,50672,50681,50707,50728,50732,50777,50786,50798,50815,50822,50848,50864,50891,50898,50907,50943,50969,50983,51001,51010,51034,51046,51090,51112,51116,51133,51183,51195,51199,51252,51263,51284,51288,51306,51329,51338,51388,51414,51425,51432,51441,51481,51497,51507,51528,51542,51583,51587,51596,51618,51641,51675,51698,51716,51738,51750,51760,51768,51774,51796,51851,51863,51899,51917,51967,51998,52052,52066,52098,52118,52134,52166,52192,52200,52212,52223,52242,52246,52254,52273,52285,52309,52319,52338,52356,52372,52396,52405,52419,52492,52554,52564,52571,52583,52590,52602,52606,52634,52661,52665,52671,52675,52698,52725,52739,52756,52775,52792,52810,52841,52862,52875,52885,52891,52904,52916,52943,52969,52973,52999,53020,53028,53032,53050,53061,53065,53088,53107,53138,53147,53177,53220,53229,53254,53258,53294,53318,53349,53374,53384,53399,53408,53427,53438,53485,53489,53493,53531,53553,53578,53602,53628,53662,53680,53686,53690,53725,53736,53784,53801,53816,53820,53824,53848,53868,53875,53884,53895,53909,53913,53922,53988,54043,54049,54056,54060,54072,54117,54149,54225,54265,54319,54357,54377,54440,54446,54480,54531,54569,54590,54614,54618,54670,54730,54740,54788,54866,54876,54886,54904,54923,54942,54952,54959,54963,55011,55040,55079,55083,55116,55142,55172,55193,55204,55208,55221,55251,55297,55301,55325,55338,55365,55386,55409,55434,55460,55476,55496,55516,55528,55535,55550,55561,55587,55594,55608,55620,55628,55672,55691,55706,55732,55747,55756,55767,55771,55780,55795,55803,55820,55824,55859,55869,55883,55911,55944,55955,56004,56090,56099,56124,56135,56144,56161,56171,56198,56225,56231,56268,56280,56288,56292,56296,56313,56344,56363,56380,56384,56390,56439,56446,56466,56474,56498,56503,56536,56583,56598,56613,56652,56695,56733,56748,56773,56793,56797,56829,56869,56889,56893,56922,56930,56951,56955,56963,56986,57004,57025,57029,57035,57045,57068,57082,57098,57115,57143,57151,57179,57211,57223,57230,57252,57282,57297,57306,57323,57327,57341,57353,57363,57377,57414,57446,57466,57473,57477,57525,57543,57552,57592,57599,57606,57629,57652,57678,57709,57729,57748,57757,57798,57812,57833,57857,57879,57907,57933,57944,57960,57993,58019,58112,58119,58203,58257,58378,58390,58449,58465,58545,58608,58625,58640,58650,58654,58671,58675,58691,58698,58702,58722,58726,58761,58765,58769,58779,58792,58809,58847,58856,58869,58891,58920,58961,58981,58992,58999,59030,59074,59082,59129,59191,59249,59303,59328,59372,59379,59386,59422,59431,59445,59464,59499,59515,59542,59559,59571,59587,59601,59605,59653,59686,59725,59741,59760,59779,59787,59799,59814,59823,59846,59856,59893,59940,59953,59968,59992,60018,60029,60048,60058,60081,60093,60109,60121,60129,60147,60185,60189,60227,60236,60264,60294,60306,60318,60344,60357,60384,60406,60410,60426,60438,60491,60533,60566,60608,60675,60745,60883,60901,60918,60925,60937,60948,60957,61001,61005,61028,61044,61050,61072,61097,61101,61120,61153,61169,61190,61194,61235,61263,61321,61325,61333,61355,61367,61393,61415,61474,61507,61527,61547,61559,61698,61775,61871,61928,61951,61964,61983,62036,62066,62070,62086,62093,62097,62109,62116,62145,62182,62207,62235,62252,62267,62271,62318,62341,62354,62409,62425,62445,62452,62511,62534,62556,62591,62626,62644,62653,62676,62696,62701,62724,62746,62796,62839,62867,62879,62889,62908,62944,62964,63051,63072,63085,63093,63149,63239,63334,63361,63368,63438,63446,63512,63516,63609,63615,63651,63662,63666,63680,63688,63738,63767,63795,63799,63820,63861,63887,63898,63907,63911,63941,63951,63955,63959,63966,64001,64027,64037,64044,64084,64090,64111,64162,64176,64206,64212,64224,64261,64297,64352,64362,64388,64410,64420,64424,64435,64491,64509,64517,64536,64547,64555,64576,64604,64623,64633,64662,64687,64713,64864,64911,64960,65014,65030,65098,65108,65122,65143,65186,65213,65243,65276,65287,65296,65332,65394,65403,65407,65419,65435,65442,65458,65482,65486,65510,65528,65535,65539,65543,65553,65590,65599,65613,65644,65670,65682,65721,65743,65770,65797,65828,65898,65952,65956,66011,66050,66081,66129,66175,66211,66225,66240,66283,66296,66304,66319,66337,66349,66355,66359,66375,66433,66445,66482,66486,66508,66540,66547,6656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